British Construction Expertise Is In Demand Across The Middle East | Marcus Siddons

The Middle East has become one of the world's most ambitious construction markets, attracting global contractors, consultants, and investors with its mega projects, rapid growth, and long-term infrastructure plans. But behind the headlines is a market where success depends on far more than simply winning work.

Marcus Siddons, Group Director at Baker Wilkins & Smith, joins Jimmy Webb to discuss the realities of delivering projects across Saudi Arabia and the wider GCC. Drawing on nearly 60 years of the company's experience in the region, Marcus explains why British construction professionals continue to be highly regarded, how long-term relationships shape opportunities, and why patience, trust, and disciplined risk management matter just as much as technical expertise.

The conversation explores Saudi Arabia's giga projects, construction across the GCC, cost and risk management, procurement, cash flow, material price volatility, and the impact of regional conflict on project delivery. Marcus also shares what the UK construction industry can learn from the speed, ambition, and scale of development across the Middle East, while highlighting the challenges that often go unnoticed.

Whether you're planning to expand into Saudi Arabia, already working in the GCC, or simply interested in the future of global construction, this episode of the UK Construction Podcast offers practical insights into one of the industry's most active and influential regions.

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Transcript

From groundbreaking projects to game-changing innovations, the UK Construction podcast brings you face-to-face with the industry's brightest minds and boldest thinkers. Each episode features candid conversations with construction leaders, architects, engineers and on-site experts who share their hard-won insights and behind-the-scenes perspectives. 

We cut through the noise to deliver actionable intelligence on market trends, emerging technologies and the forces shaping British building. Hello everyone. We're covering an area that I work in today, lifting operations. 

JIMMY:
Hello all, welcome to the show. Today we have Marcus Siddons who is a cost and risk specialist and Group Director at Baker, Wilkins and Smith. We're going to focus on the realities of construction business in the Middle East and what the UK can learn from it as well as how the conflicts out there affect UK construction.

Marcus, welcome. 

MARCUS:
Hi Jim, nice to see you. 

JIMMY:
Likewise tell us a bit about yourself then and what BWS does.

MARCUS:
So Baker, Wilkins and Smith is a very old, I say very old, 70 year old, primarily QS practice. So we started out in the mid 50s in Westminster and the original founders, i.e. Mr Baker, Mr Wilkins and Mr Smith, were really entrepreneurial for the 50s and were doing a lot of work in the Caribbean and then out in Saudi Arabia, even back in the 50s and 60s. So this sort of international piece has always been a big part of what we do.

So yes, started out in the 50s in Westminster and we've been operating in the Middle East for 56, 57 years now. So, you know, we're not a recent entrant to that market. So yeah, and our primary services are cost consulting and project management, along with a variety, as you can imagine, a variety of other things, but those are the core things we do.

JIMMY:
And what's your role there? What do you get involved with?

MARCUS:
I'm Mr Generalist, running the business, doing a bit of everything, Jim, really. I mean, I think the reality is, is I'm trying to, I'm trying to help grow the business now. You know, we've built a really lovely, solid business, but we're now really competing with the big guys, the big boys that you will know well.

And we really need to sort of scale up technology offering, making sure we've got even more brilliant people and making sure the infrastructure is there to kind of grow, to kind of grow the business and that we can kind of keep up with what clients need, both in the UK and in the Middle East. And we'll come onto that in a minute, no doubt.

JIMMY:
Sure. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

When we spoke on the phone, you mentioned that when people hear about, in the UK, hear about construction in Saudi Arabia or the shiny developments and endless opportunity, and many of them want a piece of that action. So what's the more realistic version of that world?

MARCUS:
All the big shiny stuff is there.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
I think, I think perhaps, I suppose there's a there's a sort of we could split this down the middle, couldn't we? There's the, there's the big guys, if you're one of the big corporates, and you've got 1000s of people, it's very different, isn't it? You can go in there and open up an office, or you've probably already got one of your operating companies there.

I think if you're a small to medium sized business, very different, isn't it? It's, there's a lot more risk, you can't just throw endless money at these things. And so, to your original point, you know, the big shiny projects are there, winning them, earning trust and delivering on them, I think is the hard bit, isn't it?

It's like anything is we can all get excited about stuff and, and dream of stuff. But the reality of executing it is a very different thing, isn't it? And so, yeah, I am, I am annoyingly optimistic.

But whenever I talk to anybody, I always kind of give them a word of caution on on saying what we've been doing for 55 years, because it takes tremendous patience, cash flow is really tricky. And then down to, to, to, you know, mundane stuff, like, can you find the right team that are happy to go and be, you know, hours from anywhere in the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia for nine months of the year? You know, it's not all glamorous five star hotels.

It can be porter cabins on a site in in 50 degrees heat. So I'm probably I'm starting off with all the negatives here, aren't I?

JIMMY:
Well, you know, yeah.

MARCUS:
So look, we can look, we'll dig into it, can't we? We can dig into some of the detail. But I suppose my point is, is that it's, it's not, it's not the get rich quick screen that maybe some smaller businesses sometimes think it can be.

And over overall, what nearly 60 years in the region, we've seen many much bigger businesses than ours, come and go, you know, just disappear overnight. And so and I think most of certainly most of our competitors in our very niche specialist space, most are now part of much bigger organizations. So, so, so yeah, I think it needs to be treated very seriously and in a very calculated manner.

But look, we'll, we can maybe go into what I see as maybe some of the risk reducers and ways that smaller British businesses can can definitely access the market without without taking on crazy risk.

JIMMY:
Yeah, we can get into that. We want to touch on that a bit later, actually. Yeah.

I mean, you mentioned you've been working, you've been sort of established out there for many years. What, how, why is the Middle East construction market managed to keep booming for so long?

MARCUS:
Well, it's gone through I mean, I think the the the the reality is it's gone through a variety of boom and busts.

JIMMY:
Right.

MARCUS:
But I think, but I think the way I think in the West, we tend to think about boom and bust. So these great big dips and then and then and then the boom years, I would argue, certainly in the Gulf, in the Middle East, and those those those busts can certainly, you know, there's many examples of them hitting. But the recovery tends to be quite quick.

Now, how the current conflict plays out, I don't think any of us know. And all the horrors and and and and and the scary bits that come with that. So we don't know what's going to happen.

All I can do is reflect on the various other conflicts in that part of the world, and how our construction environment has responded. And I think we've touched on this before, but there's some basic, there's some basic kind of macro factors that I think support the Middle East market, that the West has got much harder, you know, harder numbers to fight against. And some of the big ones there really are.

Number one, obvious stuff. There is a lack of infrastructure. They need basic infrastructure, the stuff that we built in the UK, 60, 70, 80, 100 years ago, much of that is still lacking from from roads to water treatment to you name it.

So that there's a lot more of that that needs to happen. And demographics, you've got big, young populations. So they're all demanding quite rightly, a better quality of life, better facilities, better schools, you name it.

So, and they all need jobs. So those young demographics are creating a demand that I will be growing for 10s of years to come. Funding, you've got big oil revenue across most of the Gulf.

So like it or not, many of the projects that you know, we'll come on to Jim in a minute, are ultimately government funded. Yeah, we'll come back to and we work on lots of private projects as well. But ultimately, you know, ultimately, a lot of it is funded by by oil and gas revenue.

And again, whatever your perspective is on the world, is it's still going to be needed, and they're still going to have revenues flowing. So it means that these projects are typically well funded. Now, some of that is changing, as you will have read and know in Saudi Arabia.

But but I think the headlines don't quite tell the story. I mean, we've all read all the stories of the big mega PIF projects being scaled back. Some of that's true.

But they're still big. You know, they're really big.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Well, it depends on what media outlets you're looking at. You know, some of them are not that reliable, are they?

And some of them have got an agenda. So, you know, yeah, yeah. But I mean, the funding funding is a big aspect.

I mean, I mean, I'm into football, which like, you know, the Saudi league and the football, they've really, really come on now because the money is there and attracting all this talent. So imagine it's a similar thing. And attract something.

MARCUS:
Yeah, yeah. No, no, exactly. And I think at the moment, I mean, we've got World Cup coming up in Saudi Arabia in 2034.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
You know, the opportunities we're seeing at the moment, even just in the sports and football space is so exciting. Whether that be whether that be stadiums, whether that be training facilities, and everything in between. So we're working on a couple at the moment.

Really, really exciting. And they've got to get behind. Yeah.

In fact, sorry, that was my next, you know, big thing. Events.

JIMMY:
Yes. Massive. Well, yeah.

I mean, yes. I mean, boxing. Yeah.

It's gone mad. It's gone mental out there, isn't it? They're really putting it on the map now again, and doing big things and kind of saving the sport, really.

MARCUS:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's the there's the yeah, absolutely. Boxing, UFC as well.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
Through to football, we've talked about equestrian big theme. You know, we're seeing we're working across a variety of briefs at the moment for different sorts of equestrian facilities.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
Transporting horses, all sorts of things you wouldn't necessarily think of. Yeah, but become important. So, so, yeah, so events, you know, we we are increasingly talking to and working with some of the big sort of events management consultancies, who are really good at running events.

It's not a core skill set, but often need help on how are they going to project manage or cost manage temporary full to full, you know, to permanent developments. So that's a really interesting area. And most motorsport, Jim, we haven't touched on.

I mean, that's another massive one. Not just F1, but everything else. So the build out in the Middle East around motorsport is also significant.

And we've been really proud to help build. Yes, Marina Formula One circuit. Well, still work.

We still work on Bahrain Formula One circuit. So we're very familiar with those teams. Saudi Arabia with Qadir and others are now are now following suit.

So. So really, it's exciting.

JIMMY:
It is exciting. It really is. It really is.

These are the positives. So let's talk to get into the nitty gritty when we talk about the current instability in the region. What are the main effects you're seeing out there on construction?

MARCUS:
Well, we obviously speak to our team there every day of the week, just to make sure that they're safe and all OK. And I think it's a mixed picture, I think is probably fair to say. I should declare, Jim, my sort of biases here a little bit.

Our main Middle East delivery hub is actually in Bahrain. So very close to what's been going on across the water there. Yeah, we work across the Gulf, but our main delivery hub is there and our main teams are in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.

We, of course, work across the UAE, Kuwait, Egypt, the whole region. I think in the very early days of the conflict, we saw contractors pull out, pull everyone off site. It was typically for a matter of days.

It wasn't. It wasn't long. So almost every project that we are currently working on have carried on as they were before.

I think there are some significant residential projects in the Gulf that were pending. We were awaiting go-aheads on. It looks like they're slowing down.

And again, I think that's more of a phasing issue than it is that they just won't happen. Just in the way, you know, a big house builder in the UK, they've got to be really smart about phasing and how they roll out the big developments. So those have certainly slowed down.

I think it's fair to say that. Certainly those that were targeting external investors, I think those that were more sort of, should we say, social housing or internal demand focused, they're going ahead because they have to. So in answer to your question, most projects are moving forward and progressing.

I think a lot of teams on the ground, people have been understandably upset and disconcerted by what's going on. Certainly in Bahrain, you know, everybody was fine. But I think getting the warnings through on your phone is pretty disconcerting to get.

But certainly our teams have been amazing. And, you know, they're all in the office and they're all cracking on. And, you know, we've been supportive.

If anyone is particularly worried, then they can work from home if they feel that's better. But no, mostly business as usual. And certainly in the Gulf of Saudi Arabia, we've seen very little slowdown.

And now we are trying to think geographically, most of our projects are actually tend to be towards Riyadh or over to the west of the country, a little bit in the eastern provinces, but less so. So, you know, they've been very, very little effects on those thus far.

JIMMY:
Yeah, well, construction does seem to just crack on, doesn't it? You know, I mean, the nearest thing I think that we've had over here to what can affect construction. We had Brexit and we had COVID.

COVID, it kind of just carried on. And Brexit, I did see investors pull out, you know, sites sitting empty for a couple of years because of the uncertainty. So there was that.

So it's interesting. It'll be interesting to have your take on on how it's been dealt with out there so that we can learn a thing or two here, because I remember I was on one site and was going on to the next phase. And I think, oh, lovely.

Yeah, I'm going to get on that crane on the next phase. That'll be good. That's coming up in a couple of months.

And then bang, it was just sat there for two years. So I think, oh, great. So where am I going to go now?

But people did come in eventually, and then it started. So, yeah, there is a big element in that. And also last year, we did have a big hit in the industry over here.

I don't know if you're aware of that. So there was a bit. I had a lot of people contact me because they couldn't find work because there just wasn't a lot of work out there for many factors.

Obviously, the UK war, I mean, you had Grenfell, which affected the planning process, made it really stringent. So a lot of factors come into that. Hopefully, we're on the up now.

I think we are a little bit. I don't know what it's like out there.

MARCUS:
But yeah, there's probably a couple of maybe clarifications I can make to what I was saying.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
Everything I just said there is, I think, is different in the UAE. I mean, we all have read the headlines about Dubai. I think that might be slightly different there on the ground, certainly from what we're seeing.

I think demand for residential is inevitably going to go down there. That's for sure. And then another big theme that we haven't really touched on yet, but is what two, I suppose, is one is about materials.

And definitely, I mean, all of our team are saying in some areas, maybe anything from 20 to 30 percent cost increase on some of the things coming in. So that's very real. And then I don't think we want to get bogged down in it, but from a contractual point of view, we're seeing a lot more time now spent on claims coming in from contractors.

We're really trying to use this, frankly, as an excuse and pinning it on program problems, et cetera. So, you know, we're trying to protect our clients very carefully on such matters. So that's a definite theme as well at the moment.

JIMMY:
So, yes, when you talk about materials, the price hikes, are we also looking at logistical problems as well? So supply routes?

MARCUS:
Yes. Yeah, 100 percent. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

JIMMY:
Yeah. I think I mean, I mean, a good example is the Strait that's the recent problems been having there being blocked up. I'm assuming that's had an effect.

Yeah.

MARCUS:
Yes, it's had a definite knock on definite knock on effect for sure. I know steel has been a challenge and particularly, you know, what also we often don't understand is some of these sites, particularly in Saudi Arabia, are a long, long way from anywhere.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
You know, so so you've got to truck these things in. So it has a big bearing. Definitely.

Yeah, definitely. So and and, you know, another theme that maybe we should come back to. I think we've we've we've bounced around before is is that the scale of some of these big Middle Eastern projects has meant that in some cases, budgets have got out of control.

Particularly at that kind of, you know, rebid to three stage with stunning concepts. Yes. And then and then we get pulled in to try and, you know, with the engineers to try and rein it all in and then value engineer it back to a realistic budget.

Yes. And this is an ongoing theme of of mega ambition, stunning projects. But then the reality of we've got to get this delivered, guys, how we do this.

So so, you know, we're seeing that a lot at the moment, you know, stunning, stunning, stunning design work done maybe out of London.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
And then the reality on the ground is, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is this is this is what we're going to do.

JIMMY:
So, yeah, so, yeah, let's put your risk, your cost and risk head on now. That's how the clients typically lose control of budget, particularly in times like this, but not not not, you know, not limited to times like this. How can they lose control of budgets on the large projects in particular?

MARCUS:
Yeah, exactly. Jim, that's we should probably differentiate between the big the really big projects.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
And then and then the smaller projects we work across, you know, I don't want to beat my chest. We work across lots of small projects as well, you know, Villa developments, et cetera, through to the really big giga projects as well. So we work for context.

We work on at the moment four of the big giga projects, then a variety of other projects. Right. So I think let's talk first of all about the really big ones, the big giga projects.

Look, in our experience, it's it's it's complicated, isn't it? But I think often what we see here is we have a lot of sort of Reba two, three conceptual design work done often through maybe a head office in Europe somewhere. And and the client loves it and buys into it.

And then by the time we we then really sort of really get down to the nitty gritty at Reba three, four and trying to try to actually put out a proper cost plan and then move to to actually get this procured. Budgets can quickly get get out of control. So I think it's it's often concepts just going too far.

And and then heads are on the block, aren't they? Because they've signed off on this and it's go, go, go. And and then the budget doesn't match.

So we're working with some amazing clients, some, you know, some of the big name engineers that you will know. Mega teams, amazing teams where we have to just come together and we have to spend many months then actually reworking these to shave whatever we need to shave off. Where do those savings then come from across the board?

We've certainly seen in recent months that basic specifications, you know, make a huge difference, of course, you know, has a very, very big impact, particularly where it involves big hospitality, hotel developments. You can imagine a huge bearing on cost.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, this is where the value engineering really comes into play, doesn't it? And what you really want to work on. But it's got to be a balance, isn't it?

You know, you don't want to engineer it too much to to. There's a difference between cost cutting, isn't there? And smart planning to make to smartly do things differently that to create the same solution, the same project.

Is that right? Yeah.

MARCUS:
Yeah. I think that's good. I mean, there's a good actually an example of great, a great British initiative is we've been working with the R.I.B.A. recently, and they're looking to kind of. Should we say tweak, slightly reengineer the plan of works, but specifically to the Middle East, I think I think it's leaning towards Saudi Arabia. So we were part of that. And a bit that's partially kind of trying to answer your question is actually, how do we rethink the workflow here to make sure we minimize these mega value engineering exercises and we get it right in the first place?

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
So some of that is really trying to bring together the way that we manage both cost and program and rethinking some of those earlier steps.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
So that's that's a piece of work that's ongoing at the moment, but I hope I hope will come out at the end of this year.

JIMMY:
OK, cool. Cool. Yeah.

Well, one thing I've noticed, not even limited to construction is think businesses can look great from the outside, can't they? You know, that could be that can be from your one man bands to the to the major companies. You know, you've got your small builder who might have nice trucks and go on all the fancy holidays and have a pool in the back garden, but he's living off credit.

And then similarly with the larger firms or sort of the SME firms who you might be buying loads of equipment, but scaling much faster than they can manage. You know what I mean?

MARCUS:
Yes. Yes. Yes.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a good look.

The Middle East reflects all of that. You know, you never you never quite know what the real story is underneath. I think in some respects, though, you you you clear out some of the should we say the we're referring to the flashy vans and all the rest of it in the sense in the sense that, you know, credit is much harder out there.

You know, as an as an example, I don't mind saying these things as as a business. You know, we we choose not to run. You know, we don't run we don't have any debt.

We don't run any overdrafts. We just have to be really smart the way that we actually manage cash flow. We manage our invoicing and there is no debt.

So so, you know, so you are sort of protected to a degree there. But I think I think the big framework agreements, you know, you do you make a significant commitment being part of one of those and managing, you know, framework rates, managing your team, making sure the quality remains good is is is is a serious piece of work and is a serious commitment. And so you don't go into these things.

You don't go into these things lightly.

JIMMY:
No, definitely not. Definitely not. So even if even if a company does look healthy on the outside, what are the are there any early warning signs that a project is drifting?

What do people look out for? Or what can you point out?

MARCUS:
Yeah, a variety. I mean, slow payments is the first one. I mean, the moment that we're having problems with managing subcontractors or the you know, the the lead contractor, then, you know, it's a warning sign, isn't it?

So that that that that can be clear. I think the approvals process can be a minefield, you know, and I think, again, lessons from us from from ourselves and understanding that the sometimes 100 layers of different approvals against a PO or a sort of call off facility. And I'm very conscious, Jim, I'm sort of talking a lot about, I suppose, what applies more to consultancies than it might to, say, a contractor, for example.

But it all applies, I suppose. Yeah, the layers of approvals are really complicated.

JIMMY:
Well, I can imagine.

MARCUS:
And I think and again, I think the big guys, you know, they've got teams of people to manage these framework agreements.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
Managing the individual POs, managing the, you know, the request for proposals that are coming in every day.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
You know, we're a relatively small business compared to the big guys. And it's a huge effort to stay on top of that. So I think if you were, you know, for perspective, we're, you know, as a team, we're, we're about 70 staff, seven zero.

Yeah, I think if you were a small business, and you were five to 10 people, I think it'd be really hard to manage it. So I think you need some level of scale to be able to, to be able to cope with that. And then and then, you know, you've got to be able to understand that, you know, you're not going to be paid on 28 days net just isn't just isn't going to happen.

So you've got to set up your terms accordingly, and be prepared for that. The point I was actually trying to get to though, is as a positive twist on this.


MARCUS:
I think once you've earned that trust from a client in a market like where we are in the Middle East, it sticks. You've got to obviously keep doing it, but people trust you. They know you're not going anywhere.

We've been there nearly 60 years. So we don't get any of the sort of, well, why are you here? You're here just to jump on the gravy train, are you?

And it's kind of very simple to answer. Well, no, we've been here a long, long time and we've earned trust because we deliver. We've got a team of being with us in some cases, 25, 30 years.

We're not going anywhere, you know, and I think what that means, as I think is an encouraging note to other businesses is, you know, we've got some of these big projects where, you know, there have been five or six big competitors and we're fighting to win work. And you find two, three years in, those five or six competitors often whittle down to three, perhaps, because, you know, people don't necessarily have the consistency or are not prepared to look after their staff in the way that they should and therefore they give up and they move on. So, you know, I think we've earned a lot of credit over the years for not being one of them.

JIMMY:
Yeah, that is one factor. But how else do you earn that trust? It can't be easy.

I mean, I imagine it's one of those markets where technical competence alone isn't enough. So how do you build that trust to form the long term relationships?

MARCUS:
Yeah, we're just reliant on brilliant people because otherwise it would be, I think that is the answer. I think it's almost all about brilliant people and finding them, clicking with them and making sure that they're well looked after. And I think we're really good at that.

Really, really good at that. I think technology and systems obviously play a part, but I think that's table stakes now, really. But I think, you know, I think we've really invested in that at huge expense of margins, I'd say overall.

We've got to do it. We've just got to do these things. And I think just a third point that it is about that consistency of delivery.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
Consistency. You know, we've just had an opportunity that's come to us in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. And it's a medium sized project, I would say.

It's not a government project. And the client knows our MD from 30 years ago. Then the MD that followed him 15 years ago and our technical director who's been with us 28 years.

And he said, I want to work with you.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
I said, trust you and the team are brilliant.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
And of course, the reality is, is people are retiring and moving on and whatever. But I think the ethos is still there. So.

JIMMY:
Yeah, that's an interesting point. Sorry, go on.

MARCUS:
And I think, sorry, Jim, one other point. This might sound, you're not allowed to say these things these days, but I'm going to say it anyway. And I think, you know, also a lot of these projects in the Middle East, the Brits, you know, over the last, what, 150 years, for good and bad, have had a lot of involvement in the Middle East.

Right. And a lot of the wonderful big developments there, they are led by Brits.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
You know, there are mixtures of Brits and Arabs running many of these businesses. But Brits, in one way or another, are involved in many of them. So I think there is sometimes a cultural click, you know, there.

And, you know, unlike any business, you've got to have a mixture of wonderful characters who will bring different things to the table. But I think, I think, I think there is a trust of, that Brits are typically well trained. You know, they're well educated.

And we've got institutions in the construction industry in the UK, whether it be the RSCS or RIBA, and all the others that you're no doubt involved with as well, Jim, that are just fundamentally trusted. You know, we know what we're doing. And that counts for a huge amount.

JIMMY:
Yeah, actually, you just answered one of my questions there, actually, why do Saudis want to work with Brits? So, yeah.

MARCUS:
Yeah, I suppose I've touched on some of it. Another point I've not made, and it isn't the case in all markets, is it, is quantity surveyors are valued and wanted around the table. You know, they really value a third party QS, they value the need for that on these big projects, they want to make want to make sure that they're run, you know, properly and to budget.

So, you know, in some markets, that's not always the case, is it? But certainly in the Middle East, I think it's that connection with the UK that goes way, way back. But I think the need for an impartial, independent third party is really valued.

And I think you can apply that to both, you know, cost consulting, you can apply that to claims management, you can apply that to expert witnesses, you can apply that to design, you know, engineering, you name it, all the different facets of this industry. But it's really valued.

JIMMY:
Yes, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You mentioned earlier about approval. So talking to someone who's not familiar with any of this stuff, or any of the terms of approval, what exactly is that?

Is that the early stages? Or is that each stage within a project approval for certain phases?

MARCUS:
I'm talking about typically the big projects and the layers of approvals, particularly around mundane stuff, like timesheets. Okay, invoices, yeah. You know, it's not an issue, your invoice, and it gets signed off, and you get paid 30 days later, it's, it's, there are, they have to be very careful that these projects and budgets are run properly.

But the layers are, you know, we might think that it's tricky in the UK, but I would argue the layers of approvals there are even more complicated.

JIMMY:
Right.

MARCUS:
So I think the, I think you've got to have a funny balance of tremendous patience, and then also decisiveness, and the ability to just get on a plane and go and shake hands with with the team and say, you know, where are we? Can you help me unpick this, this paper trail?

JIMMY:
Yes, yeah.

MARCUS:
Because we've got to get to the bottom of this. And it's not easy.

JIMMY:
I can imagine. I can imagine it's a proper headache. But you did touch on something, timesheets there.

So I have to confess, right? So QSs in my line are the bane of my life. Because we, so crane, I'm a crane operator.

So we have our hours set out. So we're hired out to these, to these companies, we might have a deal, we might negotiate our hours and what they're going to give us to be up the crane certain amount of hours. So that's good.

The QSs don't know the politics side of the site and why we do what we do and what happens. So what happens is we put our hours in and then they come along, you lot come along and say, no, no, we can't pay them that. Why is he put that there and 15 minutes?

And just think, just go away, please leave me alone. So sorry, that's, but I'm sure you, I'm sure you're all good people.

MARCUS:
I'd like to think we say it with a bit of charm and kind of sugarcoat it a little bit.

JIMMY:
Not always. Right, so another factor of the problem we've got here is the hidden commercial risk, right? So where do projects often start going wrong before work has even begun?

MARCUS:
Say the question again, do things go wrong?

JIMMY:
Yeah, so where do projects often start going wrong before work has even begun?

MARCUS:
Yeah, yes, they do time and time again. For the Middle East, I'd say again, it's the point I made earlier is it's conceptual designs being sold in at the highest level and being bought. And then, and then, and then budgets, just, just getting out of control rapidly.

And, and teams and people on the ground reflecting that. And then the difficulty of trying to unpick that. And I think in some cases, you know, we're finding ourselves more and more involved in a kind of a development manager, client reps sort of role where a lot of it needs to be a bit more about feasibility.

Yeah, basic ROI, you know, is this project going to cash flow ultimately for the client, or for the institutional investor, or whoever's whoever's the ultimate client. And we're seeing a more more and more focus now in the Middle East on less of the big shiny projects, and more of the this, this is going to cash flow, we really need this, you know, we need this sewage treatment plant, we need 10,000 social houses, and, you know, stuff that is really needed, and they know will make sense. So I think there's a definite leaning into those things.

And I think maybe the exception to that rule is some of the big investments in the big events, you know, that they know are happening, that they're in the calendar, they can't move. That's got to be delivered. That's got to be, it's got to be done.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. So you really working on stuff that's good, important for the infrastructure? Primarily?

MARCUS:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all the big events that you all the big events that you know, are going to happen.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So why should the UK construction industry care about what's happening out there?

MARCUS:
I don't have the latest stats in front of me, Jim, but I believe it's still I think it's still the highest growth market construction wise in the world. And I think the sense of ambition, and optimism, you just can't get your head around until you're there.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
You know, it is extraordinary. So I'm kind of not really answering your question, but I will I will get round to answering it properly. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think if I was 25, again, you know, you got to be out there, you got to get out there, and you got to work out there, just for the energy, the speed, the pace, it's, it's extraordinary.

There's a lot we can there's, there's a lot that can be learned. You know, more mundane, I suppose. But you know, we're all bogged down, aren't we all projects typically bogged down in planning constraints one way or another.

Yeah, there aren't a lot of those in the Middle East, you know, that's normally dealt with pretty swiftly. So the pace, the quality of the teams is exceptional. So and, and I think from a, from a design point of view, there's some exceptional, exceptional ideas and pieces of work happening.

So I think there's a lot to learn a lot to learn. It's no surprise that some of the big names running the big projects in the UK are running the big projects out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, they're bringing in the best people to help deliver them.

So I, you know, you want to be a part of that.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. I think the question was more, more aimed at the conflicts and how that how that is affecting what's happening out there and how it's how it can affect us. What, you know, yeah, how is that?

MARCUS:
Yeah. Well, I suppose that from a material, the obvious answer there is from a materials point of view. Yeah.

I don't need to teach everyone how to suck eggs. But I mean, oil is energy is the basis of everything, the whole industry, you know, so it's going to have a massive impact for sure, on on on most materials. Yeah, so I think that will be a delay.

Now, we all know the percentages of what's going through the Straits of Hormuz relative to the wider industry. But I mean, you know, even if it is 15, 20% of demand, that, you know, is a big impact on everything from cement through to you name it. And so, you know, at a time where materials have already been, you know, up, up, up and away, there might be a bit more to come.

So, so, you know, I'm afraid I can't give you any hard and fast numbers there at all. But you look at LNG production coming out of Qatar, the main plant there is out, you know, this this is going to have an impact. It already is.

JIMMY:
Yeah. So it's not good news, basically.

MARCUS:
No, it definitely isn't from a materials point of view. No, no. Just a quick additional point, linking back to your previous question, Jim, was around what, you know, what can we learn from that part of the world?

The other way around, and some particularly some businesses don't always realise this is I think the opportunity when you start to work with clients out there, and trust is, we found that then the opportunity of projects in the UK is extraordinary, because those same people and those same clients are working on things in the UK. So we find a lot of our UK work is fed by relationships in the Middle East.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
Whether that be institutional money, private clients, you name it. But a lot of what we do in the UK is fed by relationships in the Middle East.

JIMMY:
So that's an interesting point. In that respect, and for people who want to go out there doing stuff, is it a case of it's not what you know, it's who you know?

MARCUS:
I think it's a bit of both. I mean, we're still knocking, we're 70, you know, we're not 70, nearly 60 years on in the Middle East, we're still knocking on doors every day of the week. So I think like everything, I think, yeah, when you've earned trust, and you've got equity, you know, in a particular market, then you do get opportunities that come to you for sure.

But I'd never quite phrase it around, it's who you know, I don't think it's that at all. Because I think it disappears overnight, that trust as well.

JIMMY:
Right, yeah, yeah.

MARCUS:
So, but like everything, yes, it's a bit of both, isn't it? It's a bit of both.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. So I think I'll go on.

One point.

MARCUS:
Yeah, this is a really good point, Jim, you'll like this. And actually, any sort of particularly SME businesses that are thinking of going out there, speak to the Department of Business and Trade, DBT. They're completely brilliant.

JIMMY:
DBT.

MARCUS:
So British government, it's the trade envoys, essentially, it's the British embassies, they are there to help get British businesses trading in different parts of the world. And I think they're just a brilliant team, wonderful to work with. You pick up the phone, you speak to them, and they help get you introduced to the right projects and the right people.

And in my experience, whether it be in Riyadh, Dubai, Manama, Kuwait City, they're just brilliant and responsive. So I'd start there as well. That's a great starting point.

JIMMY:
Good advice. I like that. Well done.

Thanks for slipping that in.

MARCUS:
Yeah, whatever you're doing in any different part of the industry.

JIMMY:
Yeah, good. Good stuff. I'll actually put that.

Is there a link? Is there a link to go to or anything?

MARCUS:
Yeah, there is. I forget what it is. DBT.

I forget the exact term.

JIMMY:
Yeah, well, I'll get that. So I'll get that from you after a later date, and then we'll put it in the description. I want to touch on contingency planning resilience.

I think I read a piece that you sent me. You referred to contingency programs that allow major projects to continue around short interruptions. What do those programs actually look like?

MARCUS:
Well, it depends. Yeah, it depends on the projects. I think the way that prelims are managed in the Middle East, you can imagine they can be significant, very, very significant.

So I think the way certainly that we've tried to manage those is changing slightly. And I think certainly that the time that goes into the sort of when we start to get into the detailed cost planning, REBA 2, REBA 3, is often highly pressurized and not given enough time. I think trying to open that out, get that piece of work done properly with the required times, allowing us to work really closely with the engineers and the designers, that I think naturally means that then actually once you get into sort of the post contract on site piece, you can be much more precise and make sure that things do remain on track.

And so, yeah, those are the main areas that we're looking at. It's the early stage bit. It's getting that right at the beginning.

JIMMY:
Yeah, cool, cool. One point I wanted to make, when people talk about the UK knock on from instability in the Gulf, some might jump straight to what we've just been talking about, material shipping and procurement and all the rest of it. Do you think energy costs and wider energy resilience are just as important for project planning, budgeting and a long term risk?

MARCUS:
Definitely. Great question. Yes, definitely.

And I think our UK resilience in that respect is very, very poor. Very poor. But I mean, these things are very hard to plan for, aren't they?

They're very hard to plan for. The answer is yes.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

MARCUS:
I mean, diesel is the obvious one right now, isn't it? I mean, the cost has gone up 30, 40 percent. It has a massive bearing on the project, hasn't it?

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. One positive, though, is if the government go ahead with it, is that they're responding by planning on trying to reduce the influence of gas and electricity prices and speed up clean power and electrification.

Yes. I mean, I've even seen some companies do it now where I'm on site, you know, you've got your plant, you've got your hybrid and electric plant, like your big cranes that are hybrid and electric. So they're bringing that into play.

And our company Select, who I work for, they do like a, what do they call it, a dashboard where clients can monitor energy usage.

MARCUS:
Really, right.

JIMMY:
Yeah, stuff like that. So like the power that my crane uses and it's between this and that sort of stuff. So they are doing things.

There are things in play.

MARCUS:
Yeah, excellent. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I haven't seen a dashboard like that. That's, that makes a lot of sense. We, just again, to just add to that previous point, we've started building out now some proprietary dashboards that, again, just let, it's not quite to your energy point, but just allow clients to log in live and see where we are on cost and program.

So they're not waiting for that. They're not waiting for that report, but they can see it live and see exactly where we are. Now, we're using that more on those sort of smaller to mid-sized projects, because as you will know, on the really big stuff, typically you, we're being locked in by the big, the big, you know, program providers.

So it's a slightly different beast, those. Yeah. Anyway, we found that clients like that.

That makes a lot of sense to them.

JIMMY:
You're talking about BWS Connect? Yep. Yes.

Yes. Yeah. That's good.

Good at all. I'm glad you touched on that. So what, what, what does, what does the Gulf do better than UK when it comes to construction delivery?

What can we learn from that?

MARCUS:
I think speed. Yeah. And, and, and quick sign-offs.

But I don't place blame on the UK there. The reason that we've got, I think, you know, I would argue in most major cities, a lovely mix of, of, of buildings is because for the very reason that we have the planning system that we do. I think in the Middle East, you know, they have to get on with things quickly.

So there aren't, there aren't those delays at all. I mean, we've got, just as a little aside, but it is quite, I still find it entertaining. You know, we've got clients in the UK that are, you know, very high net worth individuals from the Middle East, and they just can't get their head around why they've got to wait, you know, eight to 12 weeks to get the go ahead on anything, you know, just can't, can't get their head around it.

Can't we pick up the phone? Can't you fix it? You know, just, just the number of times, every single status meeting is repeated, you know, because, you know, if we're building a school in Ras Al Khaimah, it's, you know, it's got to be done in eight months.

And it, believe it or not, it can be done in eight months. It's astonishing, the speed of getting these things done. So yeah, I'd say speed is, is the number one.

JIMMY:
Okay, interesting. So what about the flip side, the other side of the coin? What does the UK do better?

MARCUS:
I think the quality of what we build. I think some of that is that we're typically very good at what we do. I think also, it's just the environment, isn't it?

We've got to build high quality housing that is energy efficient. I think in the Middle East, by definition, it's typically single skin clad buildings that can go up pretty quickly, with very efficient, you know, heating and cooling systems that are cooling primarily. So it's a very different beast, isn't it?

I think the quality of what we have to build in the UK generally is of a higher quality, because it has to be.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. I don't know the answer to this. So what are the differences in, like, regulatory standards and maybe in terms of safety and that sort of stuff, getting things signed off?

What are the differences?

MARCUS:
Oh, there are a thousand differences. But I think, actually, if you'd asked me that question five or ten years ago, it would have been the differences are massive, you know, because many of the regulatory requirements that we have in the UK just weren't there. I think it's rapidly catching up now across everything from health and safety and beyond, because it's had to, because there have been stories we've all read in the last 20 years that things that shouldn't have been happening.

I think there's less and less of that now, certainly in our experience. They've had to tighten up. And I think having many of those British bodies involved, you know, has really helped.

And we work with, for example, I mean, health and safety is a good one, and fire is another good one. A lot of the, you know, the really brilliant businesses that deliver such things in the UK are very successful and very active in the Middle East, because they're needed and we've got to get it right. So I think the gap is closing.

I think the gap is definitely closing. Building regs, I would say, is still far more straightforward.

JIMMY:
Okay, okay. I just want to go back to the previous point we were talking about, actually, about what we can learn and what we do better. We have had some reasonable successes here.

I'll give a couple of examples. We've had Thames Tideway Tunnel had a delivery success, and the Elizabeth Line has had an operational success, albeit without clean delivery success. But there are definitely things to learn from projects like HS2 and Hinkley Point C, which are both way over budget and behind schedule.

Do you agree? Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, so...

MARCUS:
Sorry, Jim, I lost the last bit for a second there, but I heard the HS2 and Hinkley bit.

JIMMY:
Yeah, so yeah, so basically, yeah, so I think there are definitely things to learn from those, because they're both way over budget and behind schedule.

MARCUS:
Yeah, yeah, well, we've, I should declare that we have, we've worked on one of those from an audit perspective, so we are quite fluent on the reality of what's happened there. I mean, yeah, we've churned out some significant work on one of the two there. So yeah, we do understand it.

The scale and the complexity of those kind of projects, but just the scale of the teams involved is horrifying. And yeah, one can see very quickly how they get out of control.

JIMMY:
Yes, yes, I mean, well, yeah, we're talking thousands and thousands of people on site, aren't they, at any given time? Yeah, it's a nightmare, it's a logistical nightmare for a start.

MARCUS:
The Middle East is not immune from such things, you know, from a mobility point of view, there's some significant railway infrastructure being built that's, you know, the tenders are out there right now, you know, there are huge infrastructure projects out there, similar to HS2, you know. And I know for a fact that there are people that have learned lessons from the UK that will be working on such things out there.

So hopefully, hopefully, the Middle East can learn from such things and minimise those. But I mean, you know, yeah, we still we're still seeing some of the layers of management sometimes that get thrown at projects. Yeah, it's bananas.

Yeah, it's, you know, we're obsessed by running lean, efficient projects. And by the time you've got your fifth layers of directors, managing directors, it's crazy for all concerned. So there was definitely too much of that on some of those UK projects, and it's happening elsewhere as well.

So it's perennial, isn't it, I think?

JIMMY:
Too many chiefs, not enough Indians, yeah?

MARCUS:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JIMMY:
Basically, okay. So we spoke earlier about the shiny projects out there. Yeah, whet our appetite a little bit. Let's give some name drops. What are some of the big giga projects that you've worked on out there?

MARCUS:
Yeah, good, good, good. I like talking about it, just because it's exciting. So lots of biggies.

Qadir, outside of Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, is one of the big ones at the moment. Huge project. They're building a full racing circuit, a theme park.

It's a city, effectively. Yeah, it's a city that will be running, they'll be building a full racing circuit, a theme park. It's a city effectively. Yeah, it's a city that will be running, they'll be building it for years and years to come.

Huge project, huge opportunities, left, right and center. So Qadir is moving at full steam ahead it seems at the moment. So that's one, maybe slightly less glamorous but I'd argue exciting ROSHN.


It's one of the big government-funded house builders essentially in Saudi Arabia. Remember we talked about young demographics earlier. You know, they've got millions of young Saudis who need houses.


So they've got to keep up with that. And it's obviously not just houses, it's the schools that come with that, it's the gyms, it's the restaurants, it's the hotels, you name it. So brilliant team there, very active delivering projects at scale.


I think one of the challenges that the big projects are having is actually finding contractors that are big enough to keep up. So I think what's happening now is they are typically being broken into smaller and smaller packages just to get things delivered. Great opportunity for many British businesses in that respect.


So that's Roshn, R-O-S-H-N. What else is there? The Royal Commission for Alula.
Stunning project, northeast of Riyadh, a long way northeast of Riyadh, right up in the, sorry, northwest of Riyadh. Stunning redevelopment of a really historic part of the country. Stunning hotels, football facilities, a big old town that's being redeveloped.
Really trying to turn it into a tourism destination. I visit there fairly regularly. It's a stunning, stunning place to go.
JIMMY:
Lucky you.
MARCUS:
So yeah, that's fascinating. The eastern provinces. So the bit of Saudi Arabia that comes over towards the Gulf, so over towards Bahrain.
I can't talk about a lot of it at the moment because a lot of it's fairly early stages, but there's a lot happening there. So that's an interesting part of Saudi Arabia as well. And then further down to the south, there are other smaller PIF projects.
PIF is the big government entity that runs many of these projects. Developments like Souda Peaks, really exciting. That is, that's progressing.
And then within Riyadh, lots, you've got Sports Boulevard. Stunning urban planning piece that's going right through the center of Riyadh. You know, that's a lot of Brits involved with that one.
There's the new airport, King Salman Park. Lots happening in Riyadh. And then don't forget Jeddah out the other major city really in Saudi Arabia.
Lots happening there. We're working on quite a few significant sort of private developments, but are mid-size mixed-use malls plus hotels. So lots happening in Jeddah as well.
And then the other one, just to sort of, Jim, just to take it back to the UAE. And by the way, I remain bullish on the UAE. I think it'll bounce back.
And, you know, again, it's full of optimistic, bright people. Ras al-Khaimah, lots happening there. And I think it will come back.
Assuming that things calm down and some kind of resolution is found, I think Ras al-Khaimah, you know, will be a very exciting place. So we're certainly very interested and we're looking at projects there at the moment. And then let me give you some other sort of other, maybe less sexy, but interesting.
Kuwait, you know, they've got to build out, you know, they've got railway infrastructure coming through. There are other major water treatment, sewage infrastructure projects pending in Kuwait as well. So don't discount Kuwait.
I think they always feel a little bit left out. Lots happening there. Iraq, Baghdad, it's early days.
You've got to be pretty brave, I think. But, you know, again, water treatment, significant demand for housing on the ground. Hotels, data centers, lots happening there.
So again, huge opportunities there. We've done lots of work there in the past. I think you do have to be very careful, but, you know, lots to do there as well.
So I haven't even touched on Dubai there, but I think that's a little bit more of an unknown, isn't it, at the moment. But there you go, there's a starter for 10.
JIMMY:
Brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, Lo, it's great to see that you've got lots of fingers in lots of pies, big and small pies. You know, some really big pies, you've got your fingers in there as well.
Some cool ones there. Yeah, yeah.
MARCUS:
Another little tip, Jim. I mentioned the Department of Business and Trade we found really useful. The Saudi, if people, if businesses are interested particularly in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi-British Joint Business Council in London.
JIMMY:
Okay.
MARCUS:
Again, not an expensive organization to be a part of, but run by brilliant people. We found them to be really helpful in terms of introductions, opening doors, meeting people at networking events. Highly recommended.
Again, I'll send you the details.
JIMMY:
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, so I mean, that ties into what I'm about to say now, actually, we close on this. So I think it's fair to say that the next few years are gonna be quite challenging.
Yeah, so this problem isn't going away very soon. So what is one thing you would leave the UK construction businesses with today?
MARCUS:
Optimism.
JIMMY:
That's a good one.
MARCUS:
We need more of it.
JIMMY:
Yeah.
MARCUS:
We need more of it. Even if you're not working in the Middle East, if you've got any kind of reason to just fly out to a Jeddah or a Riyadh and just walk the back streets, I promise you'll come back with renewed energy and optimism for what can be done. I come back energised every time and I come back with new ideas for the UK.
So I think energy optimism is everything. Doesn't mean that you can't be risk averse and manage risk, can't you? But I think we all need a bit more of that, don't we?
JIMMY:
Absolutely. I would recommend going during Riyadh season. I think that would really, really whet the appetite.
Yeah. I think it's unbelievable out there at that time, isn't it? I'm assuming you're there during those periods.
MARCUS:
Yes. There's also some great events going on in Riyadh, so get involved with them for sure.
JIMMY:
Yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. Last thing.
Oh God, is there something you want to say? No, no, no, no. Last thing.
Do you have a question for me?
MARCUS:
Well, this is where I should have prepared better, isn't it really?
JIMMY:
Well, you don't have to ask me a question.
MARCUS:
No, no, tell me what QSs could learn on the job. What could we do better to make life easier for everyone else on the project? We have a certain reputation, don't we?
JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah.
MARCUS:
Give it to me. Give me the unfiltered version. And then tomorrow morning when I'm in the office, Jim, I can pass it on.
JIMMY:
No, I don't know. It's probably a bit above my head that, all I can input on is from our perspective. So I think, like I said, I mean, I don't know if this is true or not, but I don't suppose QSs really know what goes on on site with the effort that people put in and all the politics that happen and stuff like that.
So the point I made earlier is on timesheet wise. So let's say I'm up a crane and my hours are, say, seven to five. And then at half past four, I'm getting my gear on, ready to go home.
I'm thinking about the football. I'm thinking about what I'm having for dinner. And all of a sudden, the site says to me, oh, Jim, can you stay for like two hours or three hours to do some concrete?
I'm like, well, a bit short notice, but yeah, okay, no problem. So when there's that little bit of give and take, and then when the timesheet comes in and they're scribbling out all these times and knocking us 15 minutes, it's got to be a little bit of give and take there. Do you know what I mean?
A bit of understanding of what makes the job move, rather than looking at the figures. Because I can understand the figures are important. You've got to keep these figures down, but there's got to be a little bit of understanding of what actually happens on site.
So that's my input.
MARCUS:
I think that's very fair. And the ultimate client can't have it both ways, can they? So we always try and juggle both the speed and the cost a bit.
But yeah, very fair, very fair.
JIMMY:
Okay, good news. That's us done. Thanks very much for that.
It's been really insightful. I hope a lot of people watch this and a lot of people can take good insights from that and learn a few things. I certainly have.
And hopefully I can speak to you again one day.
MARCUS:
Jim, I'd love that. Thank you for your time as well. It's been really great.
Lovely to speak.
JIMMY:
My pleasure. Have a good rest of your Sunday. Take care.
MARCUS:
All right.
JIMMY:
Cheers, Jim. Bye.