Inclusive Personal Protective Equipment Is Changing Construction

Jane Middleton and Charity Rose join the UK Construction Podcast to discuss the realities of inclusive PPE in construction, from oversized clothing and unsuitable footwear to pregnancy PPE, menopause, neurodiversity, and the wider issue of “standard” PPE not fitting the workforce it’s designed to protect.

Recommended Inclusive PPE Products & Resources:

• Inclusive Hard Hats (smaller head sizes & braided hair compatibility)
  MSA Safety V-Gard range
• Women’s Safety Boots
  Amblers Safety Women’s Footwear Collection
• Women’s Safety Wellington Boots
  Muck Boot Company – Women’s Muck Grit S5 Tall Boots
• Safety Footwear for Challenging Site Conditions
  Rock Fall – Hurricane Safety Boots
• Smaller Gloves & Safety Glasses
  uvex Women’s PPE Range
• Hijab-Compatible & Maternity PPE Accessories
  Leo Workwear Accessories & Jacket Expanders
• Women’s Stretch Cargo Trousers
  Leo EcoViz Stretch Cargo Trousers
• Stretch Jogger-Style PPE Trousers
  Hawkridge Class 1 EcoViz Jog Trousers
• Women’s Waterproof Hi-Vis Coat
  Leo Rosemoor Women’s Orange Waterproof Hi-Vis Coat
• Inclusive PPE Supplier Directory
  PPE That Fits – Supplier Directory
• Further Reading / Industry Initiative
  AtkinsRéalis Inclusive PPE Release

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Special shoutout to our host Jimmy Webb of Construction Cogs: https://constructioncogs.com

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Transcript

From groundbreaking projects to game-changing innovations, the UK Construction podcast brings you face-to-face with the industry's brightest minds and boldest thinkers. Each episode features candid conversations with construction leaders, architects, engineers and on-site experts who share their hard-won insights and behind-the-scenes perspectives. 

We cut through the noise to deliver actionable intelligence on market trends, emerging technologies and the forces shaping British building. Hello everyone. We're covering an area that I work in today, lifting operations. 

JIMMY:

Welcome back, everyone. Today we have Jane and Charity from Atkins Royalis. The topic of this episode is inclusive PPE.

We all know PPE can be annoying, but the real issue is when poor fit changes how you work. I've had the pleasure of interviewing Charity on my own podcast, the Construction Cogs podcast, where we spoke about on-site menstrual safety and proper welfare facilities for women in construction. And now I'm glad to have Jane as an addition.

In fact, this is the first time I've interviewed two people together, so it should be interesting. Hello ladies, Jane, Charity, thank you so much for giving us your time today. Let's kick off with your introductions, telling us about what you do and who you are, Jane, as we haven't met yet.

We'll start with you if you don't mind.

JANE:

Yeah, absolutely. So hello, my name is Jane Middleton. I am an engineering geologist and I wear PPE a lot for work.

So this is my lived experience, my lived issues. And I guess the reason why I'm qualified to be on this podcast is that I am part of Boulders Brass, so a group of women across the whole sort of heavy industries that could be anywhere in the UK, in fact, the world. And we all come together and basically solve PPE issues that people have that either us or other people that we've met.

JIMMY:

Brilliant, thank you. Charity?

CHARITY:

Yes, so hello, I'm Charity. I am also an engineering geologist working for Atkins Realis, and I also spend a lot of time in PPE. And I've worked with Jane to make a difference sort of within our own company, and then also as part of the Bold As Brass network, shouting about and sort of echoing the work that Katie Wobbinson, Katherine Evans, or sort of all the amazing people that have put their time into.

So thank you so much, for having us on the podcast.

JIMMY:

It's a pleasure. Yeah, no problem at all. So Boulders Brass, is it exclusively to PPE that they work with the campaign for?

JANE:

Yeah, that is the main, that was the main driver. But also it's a bit of everything. There's a really big, really nice community.

So you're bringing women who are often feel quite isolated out on sites, but it can be any industry. So it might be people who are tree surgeons or farmers, or people who work in the mines. So we sort of talk about PPE as the main topic, but things like when you get married, how people find changing their names, you know, like that sort of thing in the industry or the period products on site.

And yeah, just sort of shared, I say women's problems, but that's probably a bad phrase. Just the same issues that a lot of people on site face.JIMMY:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good. So we'll talk more about that later near the end and how people can get involved and contact yourselves through Boulders Brass.

So I understand PPE issue isn't exclusive to women, but we'll start with that. You both campaign for this topic. So we'll give everyone an idea of what they're dealing with on site and what you do on site.

What issues have you personally experienced with PPE?

CHARITY:

Oh, that is a great question. I'll go first. I think for me, the hardest thing for me to find is trousers that fit.

Obviously, being a woman, you've got, your hips are quite curvy. So I found that if something fits on the hips, it doesn't fit on your waist. And so for me, that was a nightmare.

So I ended up having to wear sort of like tracksuit underneath my high-vis so that if I bent down, I wasn't flashing the whole site. I think that for me was my personal pet peeve. I don't know about you, June.

JANE:

Mine is actually the same thing, was that the first site I ever worked on as a graduate. So when most women, people will find this who go out on site is that on your first day you get given PPE out of the cupboard, it's fine. And you go to site and I found that my site vehicle was a four by four, so a Hilux.

And I could not lift my leg to get into the Hilux because my trousers were so restrictive. So I was having to sort of like hop in, like using my hands, like using the headrest or the thing above the door. And I noticed that not everyone was doing this.

This was just me. So essentially my trousers didn't fit and I couldn't do a full range of movement. I couldn't squat down because they were so tight around my legs, but that was the size that I was given and I knew no different.

JIMMY:

You sure it wasn't because you was too short?

JANE:

That too. I've got so many turn ups at the bottom as well. Talk about you turn up, I am only five foot two.

So you turn up to site as a woman, you're so petite already, but you look like you're wearing your dad's PPE because it's so big.

JIMMY:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nightmare, isn't it? Yeah.

So who else gets missed when PPE is brought to an average, aside from women?

JANE:

I think it's anybody who is not an average size. So anybody who is shorter, anybody who is taller, anyone who is larger. So I often have seen sort of very large men on sites and the vest, like a hiver's vest, won't even sort of do up around their belly, around their front.

So I've seen them where they've worn a vest back to front and then another one over the back. So they are fully covered. But it's these sorts of people who are sort of slipping through the gaps.

But you've also got people who wear sort of religious headwear, so hijabs. And people who have got particularly small feet, sort of size three feet or particularly large feet. It's just sort of the extremes, which actually in the PPE world, you don't need to be very extreme to not fit in.

JIMMY:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. And funny you say about people adjusting because that's what happens, isn't it?

When it doesn't fit properly, people start making amendments and adjusting things that probably shouldn't be doing, which isn't really the best thing to do. And I think also when it's a size issue, it becomes a bit of a safety issue as well, doesn't it?

CHARITY:

Absolutely. So I think, for example, when I had overalls, they had two reflective stripes on the bottom, but they were too long for my legs. I ended up having to sew them up, which actually removed a reflective strip, which made them against the standard sort of to work on the railway at the time.

And it got flagged by one of the costs, like one of the railway workers is not being compliant. And I didn't know what to do because they were too long to be compliant. And it's making you not safe and PPE is meant to be that last line of defence.JIMMY:

Exactly that. And like you say, if you're too short and you've got trousers that are too long, you're going to be tripping over all the time and that sort of stuff. If you haven't got full range of motion, that's not great in construction when you need motion, particularly when you're doing like a labouring job or manual work and that sort of stuff.

So it must be a nightmare for you, Jane, being so small, like, yeah, being drowned in PPE constantly.

JANE:

Yeah. And it's really frustrating. You know, every time you walk through a door, you get caught on handles.

Or like your hands are too, like your sleeves, you have to keep pulling them up to be able to access your hands, which again, obviously is not great. And I find often, not necessarily just me, but people with gloves. So they're either too big or too small.

And when they're too big, you sort of lose dexterity. So you can't use a pen, you can't use a tablet. So what it means, it's sort of encouraging people to take off a glove to be able to use their pen and then they're not wearing their PPE.

And I think that is just, it all comes back to being like a personal fit, making sure you find something that fits you.

JIMMY:

Yeah. I think as well, Boots, you mentioned small feet earlier, correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine one of the biggest issues for women is footwear, right? Because I've seen, I mean, nobody really thinks about this, but I only realised it a couple of years ago.

So I used to write for a work boots magazine website. So I had to do my research and stuff like that. I saw like on Amazon and places like that, that they did like unisex boots.

But, you know, I don't really know how it works because there's various shape sizes and different sizes in the anatomy. Like, you know, the male heels, the balls of the heels are much wider. Men also have prominent toes, more prominent toes than women, especially the big toe.

Female insteps are generally higher than males as well as the toe regions. You have thicker ankle ratios. Calves are generally higher and thicker.

The foot shape is more of a curve as well. Your ankles are generally a quarter of an inch closer to the ground. You know, these factors cause or can cause issues all the way up from your calves to your Achilles, right up to your back, potentially, eventually.

So, you know, why isn't there more for women in the footwear range? It doesn't make sense.

JANE:

I agree. It's absolutely incredible. And you know, what's even more incredible is that the first women's safety Wellington boot was released last year.

JIMMY:

Really?

JANE:

Yeah. This is a shout out to the Mcgrip S5. The Mcgrip.

JIMMY:

Okay. That's mad, isn't it?

JANE:

Yeah. So, you've had women on site until last year who had no option. It's not even like it was a more expensive option, so employees weren't offering it.

It did not exist.

JIMMY:

So, what sort of boots do you wear in general? Just your normal steel toe cap, sort of mid-height?

JANE:

Yeah, the ranges, depending on the site. So, if you need wellies, you have to wear unisex wellies, which are always based on a man's last, a man's shape foot. And the same with boots.

Women's boots have become much more of an option on the market in the last, I'd say, five years. Before that, it was pretty difficult to find them. And now there are multiple companies who are producing, and maybe we'll get into that later.We can name drop some people who we think are great.

JIMMY:

Definitely, definitely. But, I mean, I'm assuming they were like too big for you. Were they not comfortable rubbing, slipping off, that sort of stuff?

Yeah.

CHARITY:

So, I was a geologist. I do lots of walkovers. So, I go to site before any construction sort of begins.

And I really wanted wellingtons because if you didn't wear them, my pee-pee got so muddy. And all my male colleagues would walk around in really nice wellingtons. And for me, because my ankle is so slim, they would just fall out of the boot.

So, I couldn't walk in them sort of without doing damage to my foot. So, I just didn't wear them, which meant that I just got really muddy, which meant that no one wanted me in their car. You know, like, if you have to drive between spaces, I just sort of stand there, like, covered in mud.

And they just look at me like, what are you doing? And I was like, I don't know. Nightmare, yeah.

Especially if you're small anyway. It doesn't take much for, you know, like, sort of a man with a longer leg has more space for the mud to fill. Whereas, like, the mud comes all the way up.

It's just not a professional look. And I think if you are working in a professional capacity, you don't want to be underestimated by people. And you want to look like, I just don't think it helps that professional overall look.

JIMMY:

Well, I was about to say that earlier, actually. With you, Jane, when you got all these clothes that are really, really big and baggy and that, you know, people probably look at you and probably don't take you too seriously when you're walking around like that.

JANE:

Absolutely. And also, you don't feel like you fit in. You don't feel like you belong because you just feel like, or someone just assumes, oh, they've just come to visit site for the day.

You know, one of the office girls have just come out to have a look. When actually, I work there every day. I have as much of a right to be on there as anybody else who's got PPE that fits them.

But yeah, I think you feel really smart. When I remember when I got my first jacket that actually fit, you know, my arm length. And it was a nice cut.

So about at my waist. So rather than normally it goes like halfway down my legs. I felt so professional and confident as well, because I knew that people were going to take me seriously because I look like I'd, I belong there.

JIMMY:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. What about hard hats?

What issues are we having with hard hats? Same again, you've got smaller heads than us. They're probably too big and fall off.

JANE:

Yeah, there is. Because they have the adjustable at the back. Yeah, does cover most heads.

But there is again, we have a lot of people who come from our Hong Kong office to the UK. And they really struggle finding a hard hat for particularly small head. But also women who wear hair in braids.

Yeah, they find they can't fit their hair under their hat. So they have to really, I remember speaking to a woman who says, Oh, I'm planning when I go to my hairdresser for when I'm going to go out on site. So she has her braids taken out so she can fit her hair within her hat.

And she was saying, isn't that incredible that I've got to think of this and people with short hair don't or people who've got finer hair don't need to do that. So this incredible woman called Lorianne went out and developed a hat or went and find a worked with a company MSA to find a hat that will fit her head. So people who have got larger size heads or people who've got thicker hair, and she's gone out and find a hat that works with basically the both ends of the spectrum.

So particularly small heads and particularly large heads. But also women find yeah, we're fine with a hair that if really you want to put all your hair inside the hard hat, you put your hard hat on so he keeps all nice and dry. If you've got a thick hair, you have to have your hair out the back.

So either you're getting wet, muddy, or it can get cool on stuff as well. So if you're walking through like bushes.

JIMMY:

Yeah.

JANE:

So it's just something that we have to consider not that it's not just women who've got long hair, men who have long hair as well.

JIMMY:

Well, I was gonna say this, actually, because I was wondering, because obviously, I've got dreadlocks, they're not really long. But I've seen guys on site with really, really, really long locks. And they've had like, I don't know what they're called, actually, but it's like a sock where they put it all in.

And that sort of stuff. And I'm thinking, you know, they it must be it takes a lot of time and money to maintain that. And you know, if it's getting like loads of mud and dust and concrete and crap and whatever in it, that's not ideal.

So yeah, and I myself, when I've had twists and that installed and stuff, and actually, I couldn't get it my hat on properly. So yeah, I do get that. I do get that.

But I mean, what else? What else do people do? Do they wear like liners, sweatbands, stuff like that to fill the gaps?

CHARITY:

I think I think in the past, people just tried to do what they could to make it look like they could fit in. And I think there's definitely quite a good range out now. But you sort of need to know they exist to go out and buy them.

And, you know, it's fantastic to have these products available. But if they're not going to the right people, then, you know, they're not sort of gone all the way.

JIMMY:

Yeah, sure, sure. But what are you doing in as yourselves and through Bowler's Brass to campaign for this thing?

JANE:

So attacking it from multiple angles. Firstly, we definitely feel like a bit of not so many gatekeepers of information, but we are trying to shout about the incredible products the sort of hard hats, the companies that make smaller gloves or smaller boots and trousers, you can get trousers which have got a sewn in like an extra six inches at the bottom of the ankle so you can unpick it. So you've got for tall women, tall men, they can unpick that sort of thing.

So we just shout about the incredible products out there because we know about them. And we're just trying to spread that knowledge. They exist on the market, but it's trying to get the person who has that issue going out and saying to an employer, let's get these ones in stock.

JIMMY:

Yeah, this is where social media is key. I'm not a big fan of social media, but I think that's where it is key, isn't it, to get the message out there. Let's talk about menopause.

It's probably not really a topic that anyone would think is an issue, but it is. What's the issue of menopause with people?

CHARITY:

I've not been through menopause, but I'm trying to be a good ally and I've done quite a lot of research about how PPE can make menopause better. So I think one of the things people complain about is the heat. So having the hot flashes and there is so much PPE out there, which is sort of lighter weight or PPE that you can layer up.

And so I've heard that having sort of the light things that you can layer up to the thin long sleeve T-shirts and that you can take on and off and adjust is really helpful. I think things like the Leo Hawkridge trousers, which are elasticated. So they're really good.

They sort of move with your body through different times of your cycles. If you're really bloated, they can fit with that rather than having a belt that you sort of have to stick with. I think women's bodies change so much, not only throughout their life cycle, but also on a monthly basis.

So having the PPE that can move with you makes such a big difference.

JIMMY:

Yeah, absolutely.

JANE:

Yeah. And another factor is having comfortable. So sometimes people find their skin is a lot more sensitive and irritable.

So things like where the labels are based in the clothing or maybe the stitching marks or the material that your high-vis strips are made out of. Sometimes you find that kind of like a bit cardboardy. And there's a lot of companies now who make softer or sort of like iron-on rather than stitched, an additional piece of fabric.

Basically, it means that you're not having that itchy feeling against your skin, which also works with people who are neurodiverse. So people who are maybe a lot more sensitive to, you know, collars or where the label is in the side, that sort of thing.

JIMMY:

Yeah, I get that. I get that. I mean, my daughter, she's not neurodiverse, but when she was small, she's 15 now, but when she was really small, she used to flip out.

If she had like sock with a seam or trouser, then she could feel the seam. She just refused to wear it. And she'd flip out and she was like, is it seriously that big a deal?

She's probably flipping out about it. So, yeah, I can fully understand that. My wife, we spoke before Charity, but my wife's going through menopause.

So I've seen the effects with the temperature and it can lead to, you know, frustration, mood changes and all that sort of stuff. Aside from the other symptoms that, I mean, this could go deeper anyway with construction inclusion-wise, the mood changes, memory loss, brain fog, decision-making and all that sort of stuff that on a bit of a side thing that isn't really thought about as much. But yeah, so I'm glad you say there is stuff out there. 

So like you say, at the end, we'll get a list from you and we'll put the links in the description of all the products and all the companies that provide for this, all these things, if you don't mind.

JANE:

Yeah, definitely. And there's also a new piece of legislation which has just been released in November. It's a new British standard guidance document, which is something like, I'm not going to guess what the number is, but you might have it in front of you.

JIMMY:

BS 30417.

JANE:

That's the one. Yeah.

JIMMY:

There is hope ahead. That's good. So yeah, so as you brought it up, so for people who don't know about this, how did this come about?

Do you know?JANE:

Yeah, so I was part of the panel who drafted the text, and essentially it was a group, a diverse group of people who worked in any industry that used PPE. So we're talking airlines, firefighters, police, nurses, construction. And the police went out to boulders brass and said, is there anybody you think could sit on the, in the discussion, just so we make sure that we're being as inclusive in the text as possible.

And we had to go through and define what we meant by inclusivity, what we meant by, we use a term called fit for form. So rather than having a PPE that's individual to a size 12 woman, it was more about having a PPE that fit the person because we actually find them when I'm trying to find solutions for people, a lot of very small men wear women's clothes, women's PPE items, because they're so much more stretchy. And the women's technology in the garments is way ahead of the men's and actually they're much better pieces.

So the fit for form comes in there and having a bit more sort of gender neutral.

JIMMY:

Okay, that's great. So how long did it take for this process?

JANE:

It was, it was a lengthy process, but apparently it was the quickest that a standard document had ever been put together, which I was, it was incredible. So probably about a year and a half, I think in the making, and then getting it through sort of the public consultations took a while as well. And then sort of finalizing the text and making sure everything was cohesive.

Yeah, it took, it took a lot of work and there was an incredible group of people who were so passionate about what they did and people who were sort of manufacturers, end users. So I sort of fit into that category, suppliers as well. So big companies who supply different brands of PPE.

So it was great to have everyone in the same room.

JIMMY:

Yeah. So I'm assuming now, as this is a standard, this goes out to all employers and this is the framework that they need to abide by when providing PPE, yeah?

JANE:

Yeah. So it's a guidance document rather than a law, but they had a parliamentary launch. So I went to parliament, I was part of the speaker panel there, which was an incredible experience.Again, in a room of MPs and all these super important people and this little old me sat at the front showing what my problems were. But yeah, so it's a document, it's also free to download. So there is no excuse that no person or employer shouldn't be able to access this document.

It’s short, it's definitely something just worth flicking through and sort of knowing what the guidance is out there and they're also taking it to the European Standards Writing Committee as well, so it will become a European standard too.

JIMMY: 

Okay, can you tap into a little bit of what's covered in it?

JANE: 

So it covers what people mean by fit for form, so essentially encouraging employers and manufacturers and employees to work together, so to make sure that all parties have the responsibility to go out and find basically PPE that fits, so there's no point the employer just saying, well actually this is the cheapest kind of jacket, you're just going to wear this one, when actually there might be a much better suited jacket, it might be a higher price point, but it's what that employee needs or that person needs.

So it's about, so it talks about responsibility, it talks about altering garments as well, which we've touched on earlier, and that whoever is altering the garment should talk to the manufacturer and just make sure it's still compliant, so that people like Charity don't get caught out unintentionally that you think you're doing the right thing. 

It talks also about making sure that the lifecycle of the PPE is good as well, so checking that it's not ripped, it's still fit for purpose and that it's sort of recycled at the end or that there is a way of replacing a bit of PPE. I mean we've all probably got our favourite pair of, I don't know, trackies or boots or something that you never want to throw away because you don't think you can ever replace them, and that's not the point with PPE is that it does have an end of life and that you need to be able to replace it and have a good product again.

JIMMY:

Yeah sure, so I mean you get your PPE provided by Atkins Rareless. But are you seeing an improvement when you go on site now, nowadays?

CHARITY:

I think I am personally, I think especially for the big ticket employers. I think the people that, I think one thing I love about that standard is it has some advice in it about sort of trialling PPE and also for employers to keep like a documentation of that process of PPE selection. So I think I've personally seen a lot of improvement when I go out and I think if you, people. So I think it has filtered through, I think they're still filtering through to be done especially for the smaller companies but I'm really hoping that this standard sort of empowers people to say actually there is better stuff out there and as you're my employer I need your help. And I think for me that's why I love this document because it's so empowering.

JIMMY:

Yeah I mean that, yeah you just touched on something there actually when people go for ask for help. But I think it's important for, I shall put this, for employees to consider people who might not want to put their hands up publicly for whatever reason. Whether they are going through menopause or maybe they're pregnant and they don't want to disclose it or whatever. You know there needs to be, or maybe a little bit shy, there needs to be things in place for them to say that this is what I need can I have this please somehow, I don't know what you think about that.

CHARITY:

I absolutely say I think I would encourage people to do sort of their own sort of risk-based assessment with their workplace whether that's their line manager or their employer and sort of challenge what PPE they have access to because I think in especially in the UK there's only three or four large PPE suppliers and they will have things in their storeroom. It's just whether if those things are offered to your staff and I think sort of having that challenge they actually can we try different coats, can we try different trousers and sort of asking those questions.

JANE:

I was just going to say that in our, in Agatherealis people like myself and Charity campaigned to say to our, in our sort of PPE catalogue that there are these options available. So there is pregnancy PPE clothing, there is modesty clothing so for people who wear so the hijabs and longer shirts. Having that available even if nobody orders it the fact that it is available shows that it's inclusive that we are part of an inclusive environment.

JIMMY:

Yeah definitely definitely. I'm just wondering how I mean how does it work I mean when companies want to provide this sort of stuff do they do they need to do trial do they need to talk people talk to people first and ask for what they need what the requirements are what does a real process look like or what does a trial look like?

CHARITY:

So we in Agatherealis we organised and we're part of a team called PPE for all, which has representatives from all our employee networks. And we organised PPE roadshows which is where our supplier brought in examples of all types different PPE in all types of sizes and we basically got the whole office to try it on. And we said you know real people give us the feedback and I think that was that was really valuable and obviously you can't do that all the time and you can't do that to every single garment. 

So I think sometimes I would encourage people to order things not branded and then send them back if they don't like them and then also provide that feedback to the manufacturer and supplier you know sort of saying like these trousers were rubbish because you know they have no stretch in them or if they have some feedback as well because I think one of the things we found at our roadshows is suppliers weren't used to getting such detailed feedback I think people order things and they either make do or you know they send them back and just find something else. But I think that they were really reactive to that feedback process because they want to improve and they want to do better and the PPE market is so large. You know they're all fighting to be the number one.

JIMMY:

Yeah of course of course. I think as well you know when you say try it on I think it's important to actually trial for a while first not just try it on because obviously you're going to be you're going to be in it for a few days so actually wear it for a while and work in it and see how that goes see how durable it is rather than just trying it on quickly and saying yeah whatever you know what I mean.

JANE:

Yeah and as part of Boulders Brass we've been really fortunate that some of the manufacturers so the companies who make the PPE have sent items to Boulders Brass to trial. 

So last week I had a thermal gillet from Leo and it's a product they haven't released yet but they've asked me for some feedback on it. 

You know have the pockets in the right place does the zipper work like can you've got full range of motion and I had the same with gloves I had different thicknesses of gloves and I had to I told them that actually as your gloves got thicker your fingers got way longer. 

So I actually couldn't do anything in the thick gloves but the small ones were a perfect fit for my hand but actually your sizing even though they're exactly the same size you've not made them physically the same size and so then they would take that on board and make them smaller before they go to to market.

JIMMY:

Good brilliant I love it I love this. It's great that people don't get on board with this. Um so last message if you if employers listen to this and do nothing differently I think we've kind of failed a little bit so can you leave us with a lasting message for them?

JANE:

Go and speak to your employees and find out what they like and what they don't like and try and fix what they don't like. 

JIMMY: 

Good good advice. Charity have you got any input?

CHARITY:

Very much the same. I think trust your people and and don't be afraid to to spend more to sort of keep that that long term because I think you know a pair of people wear their shoes day in day out. If you're walking around in those pairs of shoes you need them to be comfortable and so I think I think don't be afraid to spend money on good PPE because I think that is a number it really helps make people feel welcome as we've spoken about feel professional and you know they are representing your company at the end of the day so I think it's a no-brainer to make them feel smart and and and look the part as well.

JIMMY:

Absolutely absolutely right so give us some names then. Give us some products what have we got?

JANE:

So we've covered the women's wellies. I think Charity have you got a list in front of you feel like you have?

CHARITY:

Yes so I like they're the muck boot grit s5 fantastic I love them. The other shoes I love wearing at the moment are anything from the Ambler's Sophie collection. So Sophie is a quantity surveyor at Atkins just by chance and she designed her own shoe line and I think they're fantastic. So I love the jewels at the moment and I wear them a lot because they have um they have fiberglass instead of steel toe capped so they're a lot lighter and I can walk miles in them and my feet don't hurt at the end of the day. So that's what I'm wearing day in day out at the moment.

JIMMY:

Anything else?

JANE:

Trousers Leo Hawkridge. So they are a bit more bit more like a jogger style but they have got an incredible stretch in them which means that you can squat and you can get into a high lux without having to um pull yourself in using your arms. And then Leo have also got a really great bomber jacket so for someone who's a bit more petite they've got a good length on the arms and they're also cut at about your sort of hip height so that you are not wearing look like you're wearing your dad's jacket on site.

JIMMY:

Yeah cool brilliant so yeah if afterwards if you could both email me all these and and and I'll put the I'm assuming they're links you can give me some links can you yeah and and I'll put them in or I'll get this this will be for the UK construction blog podcast so I'll get them to put them in the descriptions for everyone to look at that'll be good. Nice one so that's it all about you so for me now I've asked you both to think of a question to ask me so what have you got for me let's start with charity.

CHARITY:

Okay so I thought I have a bit of fun. So I thought I'd ask you Jimmy, if you could be a piece of PPE what PPE would you be like what what does your personality reflect?

JIMMY:

Well I wouldn't want to be footwear because I don't want stinky feet all over me all day. So I think I would be some really cool dark glasses.

CHARITY:

Nice.

JIMMY:

Yeah I think I'll be some cool dark glasses because I like to wear sunglasses. Being a crane operator it's a bit of a greenhouse and you get a lot of glare from the sun so I like to wear glasses nice glass. Yeah I don't really want to be like the standard you know the standard issue PPE glass. I want them to be really cool, so I'll be some really cool really sturdy sunglasses I think yeah.

CHARITY:

I love that that's a great answer yeah.

JANE:

You do get some hard hats which have got a visor built into the hat. So I wonder if they could make a whole um visor that's sun you know dark glass.

JIMMY:

Yeah that's not for me.

JANE:

It would cover all the glare. No that's really cool it'd be like a skeleton, you know in the Olympics.

JIMMY:

Yeah well I imagine it's all right if you're on site but I don't wear a hard hat in the cab up the crane I like to be comfortable. So yeah I've seen people with those sorts of things actually I just think they look a bit odd personally but they're probably really effective um but that's that's not what I'd want to be.

JANE:

That's fair.

JIMMY:

So what have you got for me Jane?

JANE:

My question's a bit more deep uh than Charity's less fun maybe. Um is that what is one thing that you think we can change that will keep this newest generation in construction? The people who are coming in as graduates and apprentices now they are not really sticking around very long how do we keep them?

JIMMY:

Wow so there's many things we can change um why are they not staying there's there's lots of reasons why they're not staying there's a lot of pressure within the industry. Um there's a lot of deadlines money is a big aspect. I think in construction and some companies there is profit before people uh so I think that can be changed but a big bugbear for me is the hours. So I don't think people realize how long the days can be sometimes particularly on on like on some of the tier one sites. 

I mean I'm up the crane sometimes not too much now but you could be up there seven eight nine ten o'clock at night and then have to get up again at quarter past four in the morning to do it all again. You don't get time to eat dinner when you get home you have a quick shower and it's just no life at all there's no work life so I think the hours. 

I think by law you're supposed to have what is it 11 hours between leaving site and and and leaving for work again in the morning something like that. It could be wrong but it doesn't happen people don't stick to it. 

So that has has got to change which will affect which will help the mental health epidemic we have because that that that needs changing as well how how companies um deal with psychological risk factors on site. Hope that's answered your question 

JANE:

Yeah it's a really good point. I mean if they make the hours shorter do they need two people to do the if you did two shifts or just jobs take longer.

JIMMY:

Yeah well both yeah so definitely um yeah definitely there needs to be yeah. So if you so let's say um for me so say like I'm doing sort of eight to five when it's approaching five o'clock I'm getting ready to go I'm thinking about what I'm doing when I get home gonna watch the football think about what I'm having for dinner you get that mindset but then that sort of quarter to five they might say Jim can you stay two or three hours to do some concrete? 

And that really pisses me off so that's that's not what I'm it's not good at all. Um yeah so yeah maybe yeah more more operatives so you can split the shifts a little bit more but they need to be more organized with that to be fair so you know it's okay saying you want to work late but it's no good saying at that time of night if you have a plan in the morning or a plan for the week and then stick to that plan then you can get the right people in the right shift pattern. Um for me up the crane you know I've got a certain amount of food and water and if I'm expected to stay longer then I haven't got the supplies so I don't need to take that into account. Yeah is that good enough.

JANE:

Yeah no it's really it's really interesting point um and yeah

JIMMY:

Different perspective but we don't really see. I wouldn't say it's quite a deep question I mean the last one I had before this session was what was the meaning of life and I thought wow that's that is that is deep.  

JANE:

Well I have another question which I don't know you probably answered before. How'd you go to the toilet in the crane in a bottle?

JIMMY:

The old the old bottle. So when we drink our water, we keep the empty bottles do a wee-wees in that. The ladies have to use a she-wee unfortunately. Um if you're up the crane number twos just got train yourself to sort of hold it until you go have your break and whatever.

JANE:

So let's hope that none of the women are on their period then.

JIMMY: 

Oh well yeah there has yeah so there has been issues with that actually um yeah. I've known women that have had problems with that sort of like not wanting to not being able to to work or not being able to go up the crane because they haven't got the right amenities and that sort of stuff which can cause a problem if there isn't anyone to cover the crane yeah. So I make sure don't talk about poo too much but I make sure I make sure I do a poo when I leave the house and literally before I climb the crane even if I need to or not. I try and squeeze one out and yeah so you don't you don't want to be caught out when you're up there.

JANE:

That's for sure yeah yeah. How does it work if anyone's pregnant or early early stages of pregnancy? Maybe need to go to the toilet more or experiencing symptoms maybe nausea something like that?

JIMMY:

They then not allowed to work out there. I haven't you know what I've never experienced anyone being any pregnant operators um I'm assuming I don't know you know I don't know how that would work. 

I'm assuming that they'd have to um cooperate with with the employers and say what can we what can we put in place but we have relief operators. So if you need a break then a relief operator comes up the crane and then you go down have your break and then go back up do the rest of your shift and you know they go around doing that on. 

But that's a good point actually. I've never thought about that. I might have to look into it.

CHARITY:

That would be good yeah yeah next podcast guest find a pregnant woman.

JIMMY:

Yeah yeah that's a good one I like that. Um yeah so thanks very much for your time ladies. It has been a real pleasure hopefully we can get this out there to the masses and get the YPP out to everybody as standard.

CHARITY:

Thank you so much for having us it's been a really lovely chat with you again.

JIMMY:

Always a pleasure always pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your day yeah.

CHARITY:

Thank you. You too, bye!