Why So Many Men In Construction Suffer In Silence

Mental health on-site is often acknowledged, but rarely understood in practice.

This episode looks beyond policies to explore what is actually happening across construction sites, and why many of the warning signs go unnoticed. From long hours and pressure to conversations that rarely go beyond football, work, or a quick “you alright, mate?”, the discussion examines how many men in construction avoid speaking openly about what they’re really struggling with. It highlights how humour, banter, and carrying on as normal can often mask deeper issues, allowing addiction and mental health struggles to develop unnoticed over time.

Craig Paton, Health, Safety and Wellbeing Director, MHFA specialist, and founder of Paton Safety Solutions Ltd, brings over 20 years of experience in construction. Having started as a labourer and later moving into health and safety following a fatal accident involving a close friend, Craig also speaks openly about his own experiences with addiction, recovery, and mental health. His perspective comes from both years spent in the industry and lived experience outside of it.

Our conversation explores why many individuals struggle to speak up, how issues can develop unnoticed on site, and the role leadership plays in creating safer, more supportive environments.

Craig also shares insight from his work delivering mental health training and keynote talks across the UK and Europe, highlighting practical ways to improve communication, recognise early signs, and better support people across all levels of the workforce.

This episode of the UK Construction Podcast is a relevant watch for anyone working in construction, particularly those responsible for teams, safety, and site culture.

Connect with Craig Paton:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigpaton1982/
Podcast: https://youtube.com/@constructivecomedypresents?si=IDNtscDd_CZoxVg9

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Special shoutout to our dynamic host Jimmy Webb of Construction Cogs: https://constructioncogs.com

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Transcript

From groundbreaking projects to game-changing innovations, the UK Construction podcast brings you face-to-face with the industry's brightest minds and boldest thinkers. Each episode features candid conversations with construction leaders, architects, engineers and on-site experts who share their hard-won insights and behind-the-scenes perspectives. 

We cut through the noise to deliver actionable intelligence on market trends, emerging technologies and the forces shaping British building. Hello everyone. We're covering an area that I work in today, lifting operations. 

JIMMY:
Right, here we are again. Craig and I have been speaking for a good few months now about doing this. Craig initially wanted to do it in person, but the problem is when we talk, we talk and we talk and we talk and we talk forever.

I feared that if we got together, I'd never get rid of him. It's a difficult one with us being at the opposite ends of the country and with busy lives and all that. So I've bitten the bullet and I've got him on here.

Craig, thanks for coming, mate. We finally got it together. We finally sorted ourselves out.

It's been a bit hit and miss, isn't it?

CRAIG:
Yeah, it's been a bit hit and miss, mate, but the stars have aligned. Yes. A glorious sunny Sunday in Scotland.

So happy days, mate.

JIMMY:
Yes, mate. That's it. That's it.

We're here. I'm just going to summarise what you, who you are and what you do and then you can expand in after. So you're a health, safety and well-being director, mental health first aid specialist and trainer, consultant and speaker.

Seven years sober from cocaine and alcohol addiction. Yeah. Support addiction recovery.

You founded Patent Safety Solutions and Patent Safety Wellbeing. Yes. Good.

OK, now I'm handing the baton to you, mate. Who is Craig and why are you here today?

CRAIG:
That's quite a question. You did say there that if I start talking, then probably not stop. So try and summarise this as best as I can.

Long story short, I started in construction when I was about 20 years old. So nearly 25 years in the industry. I've been on a lot of the major contracts in Scotland.

And then it wasn't until I was close to a fatal accident on site that things really took a turn for the worst. I actually thought I would be on the tools for life, if I'm being honest. I enjoyed it.

I loved the camaraderie, the just guys having each other's backs. And I like the playfulness of the construction industry, which I do think is still there. As I said, once my friend passed away, it was something that I wanted to look into was health and safety to try and prevent what happened to my friend happening to anybody else.

I've always been one of those people that I would look out for everybody. It doesn't matter if it's the wee guy or the big guy. I would always look out for everybody.

That was my main focus. I didn't realise at the time that the effect that my friend's death had on me. Usually your weekend drinking started to turn into a daily thing.

Then it was most nights, put it that way, started to get a hold of me. It's quite a dark time, Jimmy, if I'm being honest. Not a time that I like to look back on with great fondness.

But I came out the other side and I could easily, I've said this before, I could easily sit and take the money that health and safety offers and does offer me a good lifestyle and all the nice things in life. But I prefer to get that out there that it can happen to me. I'm just Craig from Glasgow.

I like to get that out there that it can happen to anybody. I think if more and more people speak up, it helps greatly to remove that stigma that still surrounds mental health and alcoholism and drug addiction. Because if you look at somebody like myself, you wouldn't say, oh, that guy's an addict.

That's why I like to tell my story. It means a lot. I think a small part of me heals every time I tell that story.

And a small part of my friend's memory gets greater the minute I speak about the troubles of the past. So that's roughly about it. And I kind of condensed it a wee bit.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. I appreciate that. I appreciate it.

So that's what your public speaking is about, yeah, on the mental health aspect.

CRAIG:
Yes, it just surrounds mental health addiction. It just really shows me that I think the straplines will never happen to me. Because we never think anything will happen to us.

We always like to think we're kind of bulletproof, especially as British people. We like to think that we're exempt from these things. And it just takes for one small accident to just really turn your life upside down.

And that's why I do it, mate. I like to get that story out there and just say, well, how easy could it happen to you? We all cut corners.

We all take chances. Unfortunately, that's the name of the game. If we were to do everything by the book, as you know, things wouldn't get done.

We would still be waiting for things to get done if we went safety 100%. So it's a bit of a catch-22.

JIMMY:
Yeah, you mentioned that you didn't realise that you was falling into the pit. When, obviously, you probably had years of addiction, right? But when did you realise, what was a moment that you thought, this has got to stop?

And how did it stop?

CRAIG:
I think it's when you really start noticing it, that you're drinking every day. But then when you start drinking at work, that's a problem. You're hiding in plain sight.

Anybody would attest to that. If you are struggling with an addiction, you do, you think you're invisible. You think you're like Patrick Swayze.

You just float about and no one sees you. That was quite embarrassing for me. It still is a wee bit, but I suppose you've got to hit rock bottom to come out the other side.

I think for me, the time that I did eventually get sober, I was at a party. I'd been on it for a few days. I was out for a quiet couple of beers.

You know the crack. You go for a couple of quiet beers on a Friday, and then Sunday morning, you're still on it. Should have went to bed.

Many different occasions to go to bed. Different chances. Just ignored the warning signs, mate.

Just persevered. Fought through it. Ended up at a party.

Couple of mates fighting with each other. It was all my fault, because I wouldn't back one guy up. It was my fault, because I wouldn't back the other guy up when it had nothing to do with me.

I was walking home, maybe about 10 to 11, because the off-licences were opening in Glasgow at 11 o'clock at those times. So it was about 10 to 11, and I actually saw guys queuing up for the off-licence, as I was walking home, and a guy turned round, and he looked like me, but maybe 10 years in the future. That really woke me up, and for some reason, I had that epiphany.

I said, listen, this needs to stop, and it needs to stop now. That was the February seven years ago. I never thought I could go seven days, mate, if I was being honest.

Seven years later, even seven months would have been a massive pat on the back, but to go seven years is just insane. It's beyond my wildest dreams. I never thought I would do it.

JIMMY:
Fair play to you, mate. Fair play to you. How was the process of stopping?

What was that like?

CRAIG:
I basically had to become a recluse. You see, they shell in monks, and they hide away in the forests. That was essentially me, mate.

For some reason, I didn't seek help. When it did settle, the dust settled, and I booked an appointment with the GP. I went to see the GP, and he said, oh, I've got some things for you.

Looked in his office, pottered about a bit, and he said, there's a pamphlet. It was like a recycled piece of paper for the Alcoholics Anonymous. There's a six-week supply of cetraline, and I thought you're taking drugs to come off of drugs.

Doesn't seem like a very sharp idea. To openly admit I had a problem was a big thing, but to open up in front of a room of strangers I thought was insanity. For me, I wouldn't have done it, mate.

I've been since. I've been on the request of others to go and attend and speak to people in their great places, but in my head, I still had that stigma that it's full of alcoholics. I don't want to associate with them.

I was too proud to admit that I was one of these guys. That stigma more existed in my head, if I'm being honest, mate.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting that you became a recluse because, obviously, you're out with your mates and all that, and they're all like a drink, I imagine, all that sort of stuff. For me, I mean, I didn't have an addiction, so I did have an addiction, but it was weed.

Back in the day, it was probably, I don't know, 18, 19, 20, weed. So I'd wake up in the morning before I even go out of bed, roll one up, roll one for the journey to work, have one, and then break time to work. As soon as I got home, and it just ate away at me, just done my head right, and all the paranoia and everything, but I felt like, because I was in that circle, everyone was doing it, and I was thinking, how am I going to stop this, because everyone around me is doing it?

But I did. I just thought, there's no light at the end of the tunnel, you know what I mean? I'm not going to be able to do this.

But it was just, I didn't become a recluse, but it was just a case of just going cold turkey, just stopping everything at once, like all the pills and all that. I love the pills and everything, just stopping everything and just telling everyone, look, don't even fucking think about offering me anything, you know what I mean? Just be a friend.

So I imagine it's tough when you are in that sort of group, like when you're out drinking with the lads in it.

CRAIG:
Yeah, definitely, mate. And it's like my background, I love my football, so I'm never away from the pub. I'm never away from the stadium.

That's my life. As a Glaswegian, I'm sure you can imagine the way that things are in this city, and it just consumes you. So if you're not, I've said it since, Glasgow is like the Bermuda Triangle.

I think if you don't get out, it can consume you. It's for the sake of my mental health, I moved down the coast, so I now stay in here, which is about 40 minutes from Glasgow, but it's down at the seaside and it's more chill, it's more relaxed. But there was a lot of things that I had to do, and it's tips that I give to guys now, like change your phone number, something that simple, but you don't realise how many dealers you have in your mobile until you have a bit, you just have a wee scroll through and you see Gary dealer, Craig dealer, Paul dealer, Rab dealer, they've not got any surnames, it's just how you associate these guys.

And if one doesn't work, the next guy will answer, if the next guy doesn't answer, someone will certainly answer. And it's horrible, mate, and I like to think that's why I tell my stories. If I can catch somebody before they get to where I was, that kind of the suicide thoughts, and just thinking about ending it, if I can catch somebody maybe when they're starting to act like that, and just make them see the light, then what I'm doing here has proved its purpose.

I do ask that, mate, constantly, and I've since went back to church, because it was haunting me for a while that, why did I survive? And a lot of my friends lost their lives. That was something that was torturing me for years.

And I think that is my purpose. The purpose of Craig is to be there for people, it's to notice these changes and these friends and your friends and your mum and your dad, your kids, and just to say, listen, we need to talk, rather than it being something that we're all quite reclusive, the way I was when I got sober. But we can all be quite introverted.

It's just to try and get those conversations started, and especially in construction.

JIMMY:
Oh, absolutely.

CRAIG:
You know what it's like?

JIMMY:
Yeah, absolutely. Construction, we're the worst for not talking. And obviously, construction is the highest suicide rate out of any industry.

But it's interesting what you say there about it's your purpose. And I know that you're a religious man. I'm not a religious man.

But I do believe the universe has a plan for us. And it's mapped out. So it really needed you to go through this, these bad times to put you on this purpose and on this plan.

So in that sense, are you grateful for everything that you've gone through?

CRAIG:
I would say it's been a labour of love, a labour of hate, a labour of everything, to be honest. It's so many emotions that it's like a roller coaster. I always say, Jimmy, I thought I was at rock bottom.

And anybody that's been there tells you that there's maybe about another 10, 20 steps below rock bottom. It's getting worse and worse. And I hope that I've got my faith behind me that I can come through anything.

But you're right what you're saying. I think you do have to. You do have to get through these things to come out the other side.

I look at it now and I think, that's great. And it's a lovely way of looking at things. But at the time, some bad, bad, bad times.

JIMMY:
So would you, knowing that this is your purpose, would you go through all those things again? If you had to?

CRAIG:
To go through it again, to go through to the bottom, to help people. If that's God's will, then yes. I've got to put myself second.

If that's my purpose, then so be it. That's unfortunately just the way life is, mate.

JIMMY:
Interesting, interesting. What I like about you is, obviously we met on LinkedIn, met on social media, it can be a good source of meeting people, connecting. What I like about you is you post, you regularly post, but a lot of people on social media, it's all about how great things are and what they've achieved and, oh, everything's good and rosy and that.

But you're happy to share when things are actually a bit shit in your life. And I find that really authentic, that you're hoping to show how vulnerable you are and that you're really struggling. It's relatable.

It encourages people to come forward about their own struggles.

CRAIG:
Yeah, I think that's it. It's really getting, as I said to you, when I started, when I came up with the thought that, listen, I need help here, and I went to the doctors, it wasn't the thing I was looking for. It wasn't the help that I felt I required.

And for me being out there, I thought if I've got two things that's being offered by the NHS, then I'm going to look at another 100 things, another 200 things that people can do to help them to get sober rather than two options. Let's give them 100, 150, 200. And it's, I think that's a better thing.

I think people relate to that authentic side if you're admitting that it's Craig, it's a guy from Glasgow, it's somebody that you can relate to. It's not a doctor. It's not somebody with a suit.

It's not a health and safety guy wagging his finger at you on a Monday morning. It's somebody that genuinely cares. I think that's the real difference is having somebody there that genuinely cares about your wellbeing.

And for me, that's why I put those posts on because every day isn't good. You know yourself, I know it, we all know it, that sometimes life sucks. Life sucks a fair majority of the time and it's letting people know that you're not alone.

How made up is social media? It's a total fallacy that everybody posts all the great times. We all post about all the great times that we've had.

I'm watching the football just now, even if you get a coupon up, you put on your winning coupon. Oh, how great is this? Oh, Craig, you're lucky.

No one ever shows the bad ones, the ones that get beat. Nobody ever shows the bad times. And that's the way that I like to think is just, this is life.

Let's just show an accurate representation of what life is rather than it being just, it's all great. It's sunshine and rainbows and life's brilliant because life can be hard.

JIMMY:
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Are you happy to share about any of the recent struggles that you have posted about?

No, that's fine. It's not an issue. Yeah.

Are you happy to let us know what sort of things you've been going through?

CRAIG:
I think for me, I do struggle on a daily basis, as I said previously, it's like a roller coaster. It's up and down. I've seen counsellors for my own mental health to try and put things into perspective.

Because for me, if anybody meets me at work, they go, Craig, why are you always so happy? Even in stressful situations, you're always putting a brave face on things. And I guess that's my way of masking my own fears to make them feel on the level.

If they see me relaxed, they go, well, Craig's relaxed, so why shouldn't we be relaxed? I think it's really having the, taking the onus on yourself to say, listen, I'm not sleeping well. I'm getting a wee bit angry at the slightest things.

And it's getting out there to say, I think there was a post I put on late last year, just to say, I'm really struggling. Does anybody have any ideas? Is there thinking outside the box?

Is there something that someone could help me with? And funnily enough, there were a few people that messaged me and said, Craig, we're trialling this, do you want to trial it? We're doing this, do you want to trial that?

And these things are great and they do work, Jimmy, for a certain space of time, but I'm like a goldfish, mate. I go, I don't know if it's the drink or it's just my attention span, but I go once around the ball and then I'm like, what was that? What was that thing I was doing again?

And you forget all about it. But as I say, I'm well open to discussing any issues that I've got. And it is hard.

I'm a single dad. I've got two boys to two different women. That's hard.

It's juggling life, especially Christmas day. You're juggling what time do I get the kids and what time are they dropped off? And I mean, I don't drink.

I don't do anything anymore. So it's easy enough for me to drive about, but I'm always putting myself last, mate. With these things.

JIMMY:
Do you know what? It's interesting you say that because we've been messaging a lot when we're trying to organise this thing and I asked, I said to you that you're there for other people. You're always asking how other people are seeing, you know, you're there for them, making sure they're all right.

I said, who's there for you? Who's asking for you about you? And you said, nobody.

And I thought, that's quite sad. And you said, you know, um, you know, your lads, your mates, your lads down the pub, they're just, they're just lads. And if you try and talk to them about issues, you'd be called gay or whatever.

And you're in loads of group chats and it's all macho bullshit. And you can't even talk to your own family. And I thought that was really, really quite sad, actually.

And I was speaking to my wife yesterday about something else about blokes, actually. And she said, like we're saying that we can be very out of sight, out of mind, whereas women are a lot more attentive to each other's lives, where we're kind of like, if I speak to my son, like he's moved out, like I said, you ask about his mates. How's so-so doing?

I don't know. What's this happening? One of them's in the army.

Has he got his position in the army yet? I've no idea. Like, well, haven't you asked him?

You know what I mean? No, not really. If he wants to tell me, he'll tell me.

It's that sort of, you know what I mean?

CRAIG:
I think it's, I think it goes back to that, that we mate, that we just, we don't want to bore other people with our lives. We want to bore other people with what we're up to. Do you know what it's like?

I don't know what it is that goes through men's heads. Women will talk and talk and talk, whereas us guys just go, see the football? That's a yellow card.

Oh, there's the barmaid. Oh, hello. How are you doing?

We never speak about the things that we should be speaking about. And that's where honest, open conversations need to occur.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. But it's not just speaking about ourselves. It's about, it's about being attentive to what other people's lives are like.

So, you know, you might notice something in a friend who's a bit down or whatever, and it's going up to him, you know, you're like, mate, what's going on? Talk to me. And knowing that they don't want to talk to you, but as you say, no, come on, I'm here for you.

What's going on? You know what I mean? And accepting it.

CRAIG:
But that's a hard thing as well, mate. I mean, you look at it when I, when I do my talks with guys and always say first slide, it's always Craig Payton, health, safety, wellbeing director. I've got this qualification, that qualification.

I've spoken Budapest, I've spoken Vienna, I've done work for the HSE, blah, blah, fucking blah. And I look to see everybody's reactions. And then I just click, I'm also in recovery for addiction to drugs and alcohol.

You just see people's faces like, oh, it's one of the talks. Whereas if I, if I don't have that conversation, Jimmy, guys aren't going to open up to the health and safety guy. Do you know what?

I've always found that, that, I mean, prime example, a company that, that did a lot of talks for, and a lot of health, safety, wellbeing chats for, very well known globally, one of the big players. And when I would do my talks, I would say to them, is anybody in here a mental health first aider or a suicide awareness? And do you know, has anybody got any of this training?

And there would be a few hands would go up, maybe 200, 300, you'd see one or two hands. And I'd say, what's your position without getting into too much detail. And it was always project manager, office assistant.

Do you know, it was, it would always be somebody that, that had your career by the balls. It would never be Jimmy. It would never be Craig.

Do you know, it would never be that guy off the tools. It wouldn't be the guy that you would go to. And I would always say to the guys, would you talk to the health and safety guy?

Of course you wouldn't. Do you know what I said? But I guarantee after I'm finished this talk, I guarantee every single one of you would come to me with a problem.

It's amazing the amount of guys that do me.

JIMMY:
That's a really important point. Actually, that's really important because you know, if I had a, if I had a drink or coke or whatever problem, and I know that my boss is a mental health first aider. And I know that if I've got this problem at work, I'm not going to be able to operate the machinery and whatever.

I'm not going to go to him and tell him, you know what I mean? So sorry, Jimmy, you can't go into work tomorrow, unless you get this sorted. I'm not going to get paid.

I can't pay my bills. You know, there's going to be a stigma attached to me. He knows about me.

He's going to be watching me and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, that's a really interesting point. And the thing is as well, obviously they are needed mental health first aiders, but I think there's only so far they can go, only so much they can do.

Do you agree?

CRAIG:
Not 100%. And I think, I think that's the important thing with a mental health first aider is just to be the same as first aid on a site. If you see a problem, you highlight it, you point them in the right direction.

Do you know it's not a mental health first aider isn't sit down on the couch and I'll get my pipe out and we'll just sit and go, tell me what the issues are. Was it daddy issues? Oh, I thought that, do you know, sit and looking at somebody's past, the same way that a first aider doesn't get the wee green box and starts an amputation.

It's just that initial first stage of aid. It's just, you're a first aider. This is where you go, do you know, whoa, the guy's fucking legs hanging off, mate, 999.

That's exactly where we're going. And if someone says they're suicidal, then it is that way that we can't fix everything, you know, but we can certainly work together to point somebody in the right direction. That shouldn't take much, but in this day and age, it just seems to be still such a massive issue.

JIMMY:
Yeah, it really does. It really does. So, how, what's the, like data protection wise, if you're a mental health first aider, for me, if someone's talking to me, I'd want to sort of say, give them my story as well, like certain stories that they can relate to.

How much of that can you do? Can you, can you do that? Like the real stuff about yourself when you're talking to these people?

CRAIG:
So, I mean, when you look at it data protection wise, exact same as health and safety. How do you, how do you do it? If you go by the book, if you go 100%, how does it work?

Do you know that? That's, I've not got a problem, mate. I'll tell everybody, you know, and tell everybody in their dog, my story, anybody that will listen in the hope that it will help somebody.

But again, you're saying with GDPR, how do we do these things? If we do it by the book, if everything is 100% serious, how do we do it, mate?

JIMMY:
Yeah.

CRAIG:
And I've always thought about it. If, if I'm speaking to guys and always say, when I do these talks, listen, a lot of this is going to talk about suicide. It's going to talk about addiction.

It's going to talk about some really dark things. And if you do feel yourself, you know, feeling a wee bit triggered and speak to me at the end or speak to a mental health first aider, that's important as a, as a, only a disclaimer. Do you know, it's, it, it, it shouldn't need to be that way, mate.

But unfortunately the way this world is, it would surprise me if someone told their story and maybe somebody got a bit triggered. And the next time you hear, do you know, that the guys took his own life or the women's started drinking again, do you know, we just, unfortunately the way, the way this world is, mate, there's always going to be somebody that doesn't like what you do. I mean, I had somebody not that long ago saying to me, yeah, but what's in it for you, Craig?

And I said, well, I do this. I do a lot of the stuff that I do for nothing. Don't take a penny.

I take days off. It affects my family life. Do you know, it's all of these things, but what's in it for you, Craig?

Well, it costs me to renew my training. It costs me all this and that. So what do, what do I get out of it?

Do you know, absolutely nothing. It's just really to help people, but there's always that one person, but what's in it for you? Do you know, what are you getting out of it?

I'm getting absolutely nothing. Well, apart from putting myself last, do you know?

JIMMY:
What you're getting out of it is you're potentially saving lives. Even if one person from wherever you speak to or communicate with takes note, that's what you're getting out of it.

CRAIG:
That's what I get out of it. The way people perceive it is, oh, you're making money, you're doing this, they think everything's all monetized. Whereas for me, I'd said if I save one life, if I change someone's mind, then it's all worth it.

And I did my first talk and I had a young guy, I think he was 17 years old, and he'd said to me, Craig, listen, you've saved my life. You've no idea what you've done for me. And it's like, that was the first chat that I ever had just about talking about mental health.

I mean, mate, that's what I do it for. That's what holding currency because you can't put a price on somebody's life.

JIMMY:
No, but even if it is about money, even if it is monetized, you've got to pay your bills at the end of the day as well, you know what I mean? You've got to earn a living, you've got to feed yourself.

CRAIG:
The reason that I did my mental health first aid was because when I was looking at a lot of these courses that do the mental health first aid and say it's like 400 pounds per person, so I could essentially sit in a room and say, right, 400, 800, 1200, 600. I could add that up and monetize it and make a fortune. But what I usually do with clients is just say to them, listen, I'll charge you a day rate.

A day rate that covers what I would be getting paid if I was on site. So the money aspect of it doesn't interest me, mate. It's more getting that message out that gives me the fuel.

It's not something that I say, right, oh, mental health is a hot topic. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to make some cash off this, you know?

JIMMY:
No, a fucking bee keeps flying around my head. I've done three of these episodes. This is my third one and it's happened on each one.

It keeps donking me in the head. I don't know where it's come from. Sorry.

Are you sure it's a bee, mate?

CRAIG:
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure, mate. It's a big old thing, yeah, buzzing around my head.

I had my son last week and he was in the kitchen and I've never heard him scream like that. And the wee man's six, never heard him scream like that. And I went, what is it?

What's wrong? Dad, there was a big bee. There was a big bee and it was in my ear and I'm like, I can't hear a thing.

Are you sure it was a bee? Definitely a bee, dad. 100% it was a bee.

I went, you are full of shit, man. See you later on. I was in the kitchen and I went, and I just heard this thing nearly decapitated me.

I went, what the fuck was that? Sure enough, it was that bee.

JIMMY:
Yeah, there you go. It is. I can see it now.

I can see it looking at me, thinking I'm going to get you, you bastard. I've got my eye on it. Yeah.

CRAIG:
Did you just roll your R when you said, you bastard? Well, yeah.

JIMMY:
I think you're rubbing off on me a little bit there. Let's talk about the culture. So obviously we spoke about blokes not talking and all the stigma attached to mental health and that.

So there needs to be a culture shift. When we spoke before, you said that you're trying to help with this by getting it into the school system, which I think is brilliant. Do you want to talk about that?

CRAIG:
I've been thinking about it for years, mate. I'd seen the guys from Three Dads Walking, the great guys. They were doing a lot of stuff in suicide prevention.

They were trying to get the suicide awareness and prevention training in schools. And I'm sure at the last time from speaking to the guys that it was going through England, and I think Wales were going to follow suit, but they hadn't had anything back from Scotland yet. So what I did was me being me, grabbed the bull by the horns because nothing can I foresee has changed like an angry Scotsman, do you know, especially a midget like Napoleon.

So I thought to myself, do you know, I'm going to need to rattle a few cages and started asking the questions. I met with my local MP, I met with my MSP, I met with someone that they said, are you from my constituency? Well, you aren't so toddle off.

It's so hard because in England you have one regular, regulatory, that's a hard word for a Scottish MP to say, one regulatory body that if you want change, one council can make that change. Whereas in Scotland, it goes by the different councils, do you know? So we've got your Strathclyde, East Ayrshire, South Ayrshire, et cetera.

And it's hard to force that change. But after speaking to the guys, we have had pushed on a bit. I started a petition that was closed by the, I think I don't want to put myself in knots here, but it was closed by the Parliament's petition side, which I thought was really strange.

There seemed to be a bit of a reluctance to change, which I thought was absolutely bloody staggering. I think if that, I mean, again, Jimmy, that's something that, what's in it for you, Craig?

JIMMY:
Yeah.

CRAIG:
It's maybe not something that's in it for me, but it's for my boys. It's for their boys, do you know, their girls. It's protecting future generations.

And I think if it is something like even giving the teachers the tools that they need to identify something's wrong with one of their pupils, again, it's done its job. If one person gets those tools that protects a life, do you know, and it's, I always say it, mate, what's the status quo and is it better than the status quo? 110% it's better than the status quo because the status quo just now is the square root of bugger all, you know, so hoping in the next couple of months that there can be a bit of a push.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

CRAIG:
I don't get the reluctance, mate.

JIMMY:
Yeah, I don't get that either. I wonder why that is. I don't want to upset all Scots out there, do you think that they're kind of like a little bit behind in terms of mental health awareness and acceptance and a bit more of a stiff upper lip type thing?

CRAIG:
I think you might be right, mate. It's certainly more cosmopolitan in London and Edinburgh than it is in cities like Newcastle, Liverpool, Glasgow, do you know, they're certainly more accepting of things like mental health and suicide and addiction and these things. But Glasgow is more of a rough, tough, you know, we won't talk about these things.

And I may be doing Glasgow a disservice, do you know, coming from Ayrshire nowadays, I don't want to upset any of my fellow Glaswegians. But it is a strange one, do you know, as I say, I look back at the status quo and think, well, what is it just now? What do we do?

And there isn't much, mate, there isn't much. Yeah. I've had some messages from people that do this in Scotland and they say, oh, well, we've got this and we do that.

But it's maybe just one region, do you know, maybe one region's great, but the other ones do nothing. Do you know, it's trying to have that uniformed approach across all areas rather than it being one council does this and they do it great. Do you know, it's.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah.

CRAIG:
Have everybody singing off the same hymn sheet.

JIMMY:
Yeah, absolutely. That's that.

CRAIG:
Just one council.

JIMMY:
Well, I did sign a petition. I remember you sharing it out. I did sign it and I sent it to pretty much everyone I know.

I think it's really important. And I do believe that he's right that it does start, get it in the schools and at the home as well, get, you know, education starts at home. But if they can help in schools, that's great.

Absolutely. You mentioned when we spoke that the Office of National Statistics haven't officially updated construction suicide figures since 2021, saying there are 507 suicides in the construction that year. How mad is that?

CRAIG:
It's crazy. And I don't want to dig too much into it because I don't want to leave myself open. But from speaking to certain people, that number has significantly increased.

I think it was up 48 percent in two years. That was going with unofficial statistics. So I don't want to, again, I don't want to put my neck out there.

But if it is and it has went up 48 percent in two years to 749, that's pretty staggering. I think it's something that we need to have those. We need to have those statistics.

We can't just keep burying our head in the sand. It can't just be something that we turn a blind eye to when it's clearly a massive problem in the UK. I say it again, mate, the likes of doing petitions and getting people talking.

That's top of my agenda. It's top of your agenda. But it's a headache for a politician.

It's a headache for a school council. It seems so easy and so simple. And if it was up to guys like us, it was 100 percent it would be on the curriculum.

But top of your agenda, bottom of the airs. Unfortunately, that's just the way of life, mate.

JIMMY:
I know you go into construction sites doing talks, but do you go into schools as well?

CRAIG:
It's something I've not been able to do yet. No, I don't think the schools are ready for me, Jimmy, to be honest. No, there's Ben's dad coming.

Jesus, here he comes. I don't know, mate. I think that would be a great, it would be a lovely thing.

And listen, that's something I always thought about doing was making enough from the day job that I could fall back and do these things in schools, especially the high schools, because you know yourself, not much has changed since you were a kid and I was a kid. Apart from you maybe swap the marijuana, change that for cocaine, because it's the drug of choice just now. It's more prevalent in society than it was when we were younger because, you know, it cost a hell of a lot of money when we were younger.

JIMMY:
But yeah, well, do you know what? I think a lot has changed. I think it's probably harder for kids now because I've got all the social media aspect as well, all these different platforms that they've got to keep on top of and I can't get off of their phone and I can't get out of their head.

You know, they go to go to the bedroom, let's say they're getting bullied or whatever. It's there. It's there with them.

You can't shut it off and they've got all this, like you say, all these fallacies and these pretenses on social media. So I think it's probably more difficult for kids now in that sort of sense, things that can affect them mentally.

CRAIG:
Yeah, I think there's also a massive change in the vocabulary that kids use, do you know? It's like, I've heard kids say to each other, go kill yourself. Yeah, see even, I mean, me saying that there, Jimmy, it makes me feel physically sick, thinking that those words could come out of my mouth.

If I said that when I was a kid, my mum and dad would have got a slap across the head, mate. For kids to say it, for it to be a a general phrase for kids to use is, it's just staggering me.

JIMMY:
Well, this is the thing, they probably don't realise the impact that it has. They probably haven't, they probably haven't, people are doing these things, they probably haven't actually suffered in life, you know, maybe a little bit pampered or a little bit entitled and they haven't really suffered in life to know that how much impact these things can have on other kids. And that's why, that's why education does need to get into the schools.

CRAIG:
Oh, 100%.

JIMMY:
You know what I mean? To make them all learn about it.

CRAIG:
Aye. And it is, it's hard, mate. I think being a kid, trust me, I would not thank you to reverse the clock and go back to being a 15, 16, 17 year old boy.

I certainly would not thank you for it, mate. I'd say, I think the pressures nowadays are a hell of a lot worse. There's a lot of things that are good for kids nowadays, but, do you know, that bullying culture and the way they talk to one another and it's horrible.

There's a lot more, probably more peer pressure now than there is as when we were kids.

JIMMY:
Yeah, definitely.

CRAIG:
The fallacy of social media is, oh, I've got this and look at my watch and it's all so fake, mate. I don't think there's anything genuine in the young one's lives and that's hard, mate.

JIMMY:
Mate, I'm telling you, you talk about going back to being the kid. I think if my kids have got up to, we spoke about this before actually, if my kids have got up to half of the shit that I got up to as a kid, it's unbearable. I don't think we'd be able to handle it.

CRAIG:
If they got up to a 100th of the shit I got up to, I still wouldn't sleep at night.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

CRAIG:
Bonkers. And I think our generation lived on the street. Do you know, that's the hard thing, mate.

These young ones nowadays, they're quite introverted. Do you know, they go out in the street, they get hassle. Do you know, whereas with us, we were always, we were never off the street.

JIMMY:
Yeah, exactly that.

CRAIG:
Causing havoc, exactly, causing havoc, but you know what I mean, like, in a good way.

JIMMY:
Well, it was that. I mean, I remember where I grew up, I'd go back there to see my dad sometimes and I always think, I don't really see many, like, groups of kids out and about, but when I was a kid, there could be like 50, 100 of us just out walking the streets, just being stupid and causing havoc and getting drunk and that, just loads of us and I just think that's mad and like, just don't see it out there. They're indoors on their phone or on the computer nowadays, I suppose.

I don't know what one's best. I don't know really, but yeah, there we go.

CRAIG:
It's hard. It's hard.

JIMMY:
Yeah, it is. It really is. So you say you're still having a constant battle, right?

So are you having a constant battle with addiction or just that or mental health in general?

CRAIG:
No, I would say that's kind of gone, mate. Do you know what I'm saying? Once an addict, always an addict.

That's something that I'll never, ever leave me, mate. You know, there'll always be the temptation anytime I'm at a concert, anytime I'm, you know, at the football and I'll get that urge. I'll be maybe flying down south and everybody's drinking.

A couple of pints would be great, but I can't have a couple of pints, mate. A couple of pints leads to a couple of liters, leads to a couple of gram, leads to a couple of days without sleep, which leads to maybe a couple of months of hating myself, mate. So it just, it's that, you know, and I wish I would.

I think a lot young ones nowadays, they're, they're more cautious about their drinking. Do you know? Yes.

You'd be a lot of young people that they don't really, they don't really drink. It doesn't seem to be a thing with kids nowadays as if we were boys.

JIMMY:
Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I agree. I think it's definitely that.

And people are, the youngsters are more conscious of what trouble is out there as well and all the rest of it. And a lot of the pubs are closing down anyway, to be fair. I hear you.

And all that sort of stuff. Oh, yeah. Respondent about that.

But do you ever, so do you ever get that little, that little Craig on your shoulder just whispering to you, go on, Craig, go on, do it. Have one, yeah?

CRAIG:
Mate, I think I get that. I think I get that all the time, mate. Do you know, as I say, that's, that's never, it's never going to leave.

Do you know, it was always, it was always a good way of relieving a bit of stress. Do you know, always a great stress reliever, but is it worth it? Do you know, I'd like, I'd always said that I was in Spain for the Rangers game years ago, European final, and we were beating penalties.

I was stone-cold sober and I got over it. Do you know, I got over it like that. Whereas one of the other games, 15 years previously, and it haunted me.

I couldn't, and even to this day, it's still in there. It's just the difference between being blind-ass drunk to mega sober. Do you know, I still had a few of the boys going, Craig, it's, come on, we're in Spain.

It's a European final. Come on, the sun's out. It's, do you know what, and I said to one of my mates that's in recovery, I said, do you know what, I think if we won it, I'll maybe have a wee glass of champagne just to celebrate, just to toast it and say, that's me.

Do you know, cheers, that this is what I can achieve. And he went, why do you need the glass of champagne? Why?

I said, because it would be a night. Why, Craig, think about it, do you know what I mean? It's maybe a societal thing that's telling me, you need to celebrate that.

Well, you're seven years sober, celebrate it with a can of beer. It's just a British thing, do you know, it's just the way we think.

JIMMY:
Have a cigar, have a nice cigar.

CRAIG:
Aye, have a cigar and celebrate being cool. I really shouldn't have mimicked having a cigar there because I've done something with my hands. I'm glad the boys didn't see that, if I'm being honest.

JIMMY:
I didn't think of anything for it. It's your dirty mind that is, not mine.

CRAIG:
Correct, mate. Get my mind out of the gutter, especially today, James, you know.

JIMMY:
Yeah, so that's pretty much it for me, mate. I had more questions, but you covered them in your answers anyway, which is great. I've got to get you to do one thing, though.

You mentioned me about rolling my R's. I can't actually say my R's properly. Can you say purple burglar alarm?

CRAIG:
I knew that was going to come, mate. I'm actually okay for that, purple burglar alarm.

JIMMY:
Okay, that's not too bad.

CRAIG:
I think it depends what part of Scotland you're from, because everybody thinks we all speak the same. I had a guy, we've got a boy on our site from the Shetlands, and there's guys from Glasgow, and they're going, Craig, what the fuck did he just say? It was like, and they're like, I can understand him because I worked in the Shetlands, so I have my ears tuned into him.

The rest of the guys, young Glaswegian boys, like, Craig, what the fuck? What's he saying? What is that?

It's mental.

JIMMY:
It's mad, isn't it? It is weird. I'll get like that.

So, obviously, working on the cranes, communication is a big thing on the radio. So, I've worked with, honestly, all sorts, Romanian, Indians on the radio, Czechs, Russians. The worst ones who can understand the least is the Geordies when they come on, like the Geordies.

I have to say to them, especially when they're really quick, I have to say, look, mate, honestly, you're going to have to fucking slow down a little bit. I don't know what you are saying to me, which is really important on the crane, because it's quite dangerous. It's weird, isn't it?

It's all English, but it's like another language.

CRAIG:
I must say, mate, I love the Geordies, and I love the Scousers and that as well. I think they're the closest to Scots for the English that you would get, and the accents are just wild. We read a Geordie guy, without upsetting your Geordie followers, I'd say to him, I'd say, you guys are just Scots without the brains.

That's all you guys are. And he's like, what are you talking about, man? I've got you right on the hook.

Come on in, man.

JIMMY:
Yeah, love it. Love it.

CRAIG:
Awesome.

JIMMY:
You've got to have a laugh, don't you? That's it, mate. That's it.

What are the plans? What do you have planned for the future? Anything?

CRAIG:
For me, mate, I think it is, if I can force that through, if there's a few things that I can force through legislation-wise, I'll be a very happy man. I think a lot of the stuff that I'm doing, it seems to me that I'm a spokesman for the people that didn't survive. I feel like a spokesman for the guys that succumbed to their addiction.

I feel like a spokesman for the people that did seek to end their life and succeeded. If I can force through a wee bit of change and make conversations readily available in the construction industry, I'll gladly go back to health and safety and say, I've done my job. I'm happy.

I think that is it. It's just about that bit of contentment, Jimmy. Just how do we go about it?

How do we force change? It's a hard one. It's a million-dollar question, if I'm being really honest.

To me, that would make me happy, for a more open construction environment. What it's going to take, mate, I really don't know.

JIMMY:
Yeah, so the challenge is getting people on board, innit? That's the real challenge of it, yeah.

CRAIG:
There are a lot of good guys out there, and there's a lot of people doing a lot of good work. I think that's what I tried to do maybe a year or so ago, was to get all the right people in the right place, with the right intentions, to say, do you know what? I can't do it myself.

Jimmy, you can't do it yourself. Let's have everybody put our heads together and just blow it up. See what it takes us.

Rattle some cages. But it's always the same, mate. It just falls on deaf ears, a lot of the stuff that us guys do.

Again, it's top of our agenda, bottom of theirs. Money talks.

JIMMY:
It does, yeah. It does. I think the stigma as well.

We mentioned when we spoke on the phone, I did think about doing one thing with a friend of mine, is to document my friend's a councillor, does counselling for the NHS, but to document people's counselling sessions and stuff like that, and put it out there and publish it, and to get some higher power people in construction to document their problems. But I don't think that they would do it. I don't think they'd be on board with it.

I don't think they'd want to show that sort of weakness and let people see that side of them.

CRAIG:
I think with the likes of your GDPR and that, that could be a hard thing. But is it doable? Of course it is.

The big man will find a way. If you've got an idea, he'll find a way to get that out there and throw a bit of weight behind you. For me, as I'd said, I banged my head against a wall for years and years, and I nearly bankrupted myself, and then I went back to health and safety.

But even at that, I'm going, how do I do this? Come on, Craig, think, think. Praying to the big man upstairs, saying, help me, show me, give me a sign, what do I need to do?

And that's when I started saying, well, if people aren't, if the industry isn't going to take this seriously, if we're not going to really look at it, how do we lighten the mood? How do we stop it from being such a, you've got to do this, we need this job done, we need it done in time. Project managers looking after six contracts, health and safety guys running about like blue-ass flies.

Actually, one guy telling me, it's all about speed and quality, Craig, speed and quality. Those two things don't go together, as you know. Going to a site for an hour, then another site, and another site, it's, we're rushing, just take a step back and just let's get people talking, let's get people laughing, let's get people just back to maybe a wee bit of fun in the industry, rather than it being so bloody serious.

It's like, oh, Jimmy, you're looking a wee bit on towards drug and alcohol test. That's exactly what we'll do. Let's have a chat with people.

If you feel that drug and alcohol test, why are you taking drugs in the first place? Is there something we can help you with? What's going on in your family life?

Do you need a bit more time? Could I let you away two days early to pick the kids up from school? Would that make a difference to you?

I think it's just being more personable than it just being money, money, time loads, money. Something's got to change, mate.

JIMMY:
What do you think about antidepressants?

CRAIG:
I was on antidepressants for maybe five years, and I felt like an emotional fucking reject. I would watch, I would watch comedy shows and I would sit there like, it was like a deep stone that I would just sit and go and mumble a laugh. When I did come off them, em, suicidal thoughts.

JIMMY:
Really?

CRAIG:
Wow. They never really warn you about this. Coming off them is horrendous.

Lack of sleep. Suicidal thoughts. We call it the heebie-jeebies.

Like the fear. Do you know it? Horrible, mate.

It's absolutely disgusting. It's not a nice thing to do. But again, the way I think about it, mate, we've got over a million Scots that are on antidepressants for a nation of six million people.

You've got a sixth that are on antidepressants. Who's getting paid? Without putting a tin hat on and being too conspiracy-wise, who's getting paid for this?

Do you know it? It doesn't make sense. And if it makes you, if it's like an emotional vacuum on people, you're not really, you're not really asking too many questions if you're sat there in a state like...

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you say, yeah, I mean, I do think Big Pharma's got a lot to answer for.

But, you know, I've heard of people that have done really well on antidepressants and all sorts of medication, but then there are people that have been so much better when they've been off it.

CRAIG:
A hundred percent, mate. I think that's going back to what I was saying with do you give somebody two options or do you give them 200?

JIMMY:
Yeah.

CRAIG:
What do we do? Do you know it, Jimmy? You look like quite a fit person.

Do you want to start doing walking football? I know a guy that does walking football. They're a half a mile from where you stay Thursday nights, eight o'clock.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

CRAIG:
It's trying to get that different thing because every one of us are different, mate. It can't just be two solutions for 60 million people in the UK, give or take 10 million, do you know? It's what do we do, mate?

How do we fix this? But it is starting with get it into the schools, get the open chats into the school and maybe not our generation will see the best of it, but certainly my sons and your son and their kids. That's essentially who it's for, mate.

Absolutely. It's getting people to talk. Just open it up.

JIMMY:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll keep doing that, mate. Keep doing what you're doing. You're doing wonderful work and I wish you every success in the world.

I really do. And I wish you some peace as well. I think that's it, mate.

CRAIG:
It's funny because one thing I'll leave you with, and I'd always thought that it was, are you happy? You happy, Jimmy? You happy?

Oh, you must be unhappy then. There's never, it's happy or unhappy. See that level of contentment that 60, 65, 70% just floating along.

We need to normalise contentment as being a dream.

JIMMY:
Exactly. I was just about to say, I don't search for happiness. I search for peace.

That's what I'm looking for. Peace and contentment.

CRAIG:
A hundred percent, mate. And that's a big thing, but we teach kids, oh, you've got to be happy and see if you're not happy, you must be unhappy. You don't have to be happy though, do you?

Exactly, mate. We're serious. Teaching people that normalising contentment is a great thing to get people on the level, do you know?

JIMMY:
Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to have light and dark.

You have to have happiness, sadness, anger, joy. Everything's got to have a contrast, isn't it? You can't avoid that at the end of the day.

So as long as you accept what it is and aware of whatever it is that you have got, you know, and not just ignoring it. But yeah, peace all the way for me. My peace is getting a house out in the water somewhere, right in the middle of nowhere, no people, and just retiring there with my wife and living life writing novels.

That'll be my peace one day.

CRAIG:
You know what's good for that, mate? Up north.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

CRAIG:
A hell of a lot of English people up in Scotland now that just go, oh, I'm done.

CRAIG:
I'm just Craig from Glasgow. I like to get that out there that, do you know, it can it can happen to anybody and I think if more and more people speak up it helps greatly to remove that stigma that still surrounds mental health and alcoholism and drug addiction because if you look at somebody like myself you wouldn't say well that guy's an addict. Do you know that that's why I like to tell my story and it it means a lot.

I think a small part of me heals every time I tell that story. You know it's just to try and get those conversations started and especially in construction.

JIMMY:
Oh absolutely.

CRAIG:
You know what it's like.

JIMMY:
Yeah absolutely absolutely yeah construction we're the worst for for not talking and obviously construction is the highest suicide rate of any industry.

CRAIG:
Don't know what it is that goes through men's heads. Women all talk and talk and talk whereas us guys just go see the football that's a yellow card. Do you know that oh there's the barmaid oh hello how you doing.

We never speak about the things that we should be speaking about and that's where honest open conversations need to occur.

JIMMY:
Yeah yeah but it's not just speaking about ourselves it's about it's about being attentive to what you what other people's lives are like so you know you might notice something in a friend who's a bit down or whatever and it's going up to me you know you're right mate what's going on talk to me and knowing that they don't want to talk to you but as you say no come on I'm here for you.

CRAIG:
Are you happy? You happy Jimmy? You happy?

Oh you must be on you must be unhappy then. There's never it's happy or unhappy. See that level of contentment that 60, 65, 70 percent just just floating along we need to normalise contentment.

JIMMY:
Join us for your weekly deep dive into the beating heart of UK construction.

CRAIG:
Do you know even even for myself staying in Glasgow working in Glasgow 24 7 just really hard mate so for me I moved down to the seaside I can go a walk nobody bothers me I can you know you take the kids out to the park you don't need to worry about anything because it is just so laid back it's like going from being a nutter in a world of nutters to just being the only nutter in the village. It's not bad mate.

JIMMY:
I love it I bet they see you coming a mile off.

CRAIG:
Exactly it's like shit here comes Craig headphones.

JIMMY:
Fucking hell yeah I love it I love it at least you can joke about yourself. So let's end on so I usually ask people to ask me a question I know you said you were struggling to think of a question to ask me have you thought of anything no no worries if you haven't.

CRAIG:
I would I would ask you mate you're a guy that's on the tools how would what kind of lengths would you go to fix it what do you think could be a great next step do you know and I ask that as a friend but also as a professional health and safety guy what would you say would be a good next step for the industry to try and chip away at it a wee bit.

JIMMY:
There's loads of angles to this. So, I think you've got to look at the problem in construction, and you've got to look at the factors that are causing the problem in construction, the psychological risk factors. What are they? You've got long hours, you've got long days, you've got pressure, you've got deadlines, you've got this, that, and the other.
So, you've got people who can go in and assess these psychological risk factors and maybe get rid of them, maybe get rid of those risks. Stop people from working 15 hours a day, let them get home and have a rest and have some proper recuperation. But there needs to be governing bodies that regulate all this sort of stuff that's happening, particularly the mental health side, which I don't think there is at the moment.
I think there are movements at the moment where certain bodies are getting involved with it and are taking a little bit of attention. I don't know if it's for lip service and just ticking boxes, or if they actually care or not. But yeah, that's my take on it.
So, let me give you an example. For a while, on one job I was working, I was getting on site at six o'clock in the morning, and then they said, 'Right, we need you to work till 10 o'clock.' So, I'm coming down the crane at 10 o'clock at night, getting home, not even having any dinner. I mean, maybe just having a banana or a bowl of cereal, having a shower, sleeping, getting up at half four in the morning, and doing it again.
That's a fucking killer. That can't be happening. That sort of shit is going to make someone fucking down after a while, isn't it? Depressing, everything. So, all these little things impact that.
That's one thing. Also, how do you change the culture? I mean, I don't know. How do you change the culture around mental health? That's a whole other conversation. That's what you've been trying to work on with the schools and everything, and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah, so that's my answer, really. That's my take on it.

CRAIG:
Essentially, stumped you, mate. That's good. But see, the way I think as well, mate, you say about culture, culture's different in Scotland than it is in England. It's also different to what it is in Essex than it is in Glasgow. It's different from Edinburgh to Glasgow, do you know? Everything's all different.
But if we can get the kids, the kids, it changes everything, mate. I think that really does add a new dimension to it. If we change these things and we get people talking, especially with the kids, mate, yeah, definitely.
See, that's our only hope, is getting into their minds and just normalising that conversation. To say, 'Are you all right?' 'Yeah.' 'Are you sure?'
I say it all the time, mate. It's like, ask twice. You know, I know that was a thing for a while, when everybody was saying, well, don't ask once, ask twice. Make sure that you ask that second time and stare somebody in the eyes.
I know for me, if somebody says, 'Craig, are you okay?' brilliant. If they ask you again and they look at you square in the eyes, then I'm more inclined to go, 'Aye.' So, you know, the kids are a wee bit... I was angry with the boys the other day. You're more inclined to open up.
And I think it's maybe something that even with toolbox talks and stand-down days... stand-down days in Scotland consist of a pizza and back to work, do you know? 'Oh, we'll get pizzas in, guys, that'll be great.'

JIMMY:
I get a pizza and then right back to work yes yeah well you are I mean the end of the day the kids are our future so get it into their heads now then when they do grow up they're going to bring this mentality into the workplace hopefully and the future leaders will will know how to deal with the situation and and help manage it no I don't think we're ever going to I don't think we're ever going to get rid of suicide in construction but um I do think there is hope

CRAIG:
For the future, I do think there's certainly things that can be implemented that will bring down the risk of it greatly, mate. Yeah, there are things. And the more that we do... I mean, you look at building sites nowadays, they're not as busy as they were 10, 15, 20 years ago. They're nowhere near as busy because nobody's head down, arse up anymore, do you know? So there are wee bits of downtime.
Is that something that... I mean, I speak to mental health first aiders and I say, 'What chats have you had this week?' Without getting into GDPR, but just what kind of chats have you had?
You know yourself, mate, if that's me speaking to... we've got maybe 300 guys on our site just now, and I'm a gab shite, mate. I make sure I speak to every single one, do you know? I just make sure I go around everybody, not necessarily individually, but teams, and just say, 'Guys, listen, talk to me.'
If you don't want to talk to me here, you know where my office is. Just chap the door, or text me, or just let me know if there's anything that you need to talk about. And I think that helps, getting somebody that's got the lived experience as well. The guys are more susceptible to open up.
But as I said, mate, it's the million-dollar question, how do we fix it? I think there's a lot of great minds in the UK, maybe a lot of great egos as well, and it's just up to everybody to put the egos aside and say, 'Right, this is what we're going to do. This is the game plan.'
Doesn't matter if it's England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, for that instance. Everybody's sitting knocking it out, you know? Just put the ego at the door and just sort it.

JIMMY:
because it's got to be done yeah absolutely I agree mate I agree let's leave it there mate that's good in quality cheers for your time my man and enjoy the rest of your Sunday with

CRAIG:
your kids no worries I've seen they keep they keep popping up at the door and it's like it's like that bee coming to scare you mate and they're like dad dad what are you doing dad who's that what's that accent dad I'll kill him

JIMMY:
nice well well you can get back to them then

CRAIG:
I know the recording I'll stop but Celtic just get beat so I'm I've got a wee who did I play Dundee United just beat Celtic mate it's just blew the race wide open so yeah the wee man's happy I can't every see every week I go into work I get slaughtered I mean slaughtered mate you can imagine so tomorrow I'm gonna go

JIMMY:
you're getting it yeah you've got to take them off from smooth it's weird that because I'm Liverpool fan and obviously one of our main competitors City I take as much pleasure in City losing as I do Liverpool winning trust me yeah so I know the feeling

CRAIG:
mate seeing Celtic getting beat is a highlight in my weekend yeah it's oh mate honestly I love it

JIMMY:
I adore it good man good man well I'm glad that's cheered you up for the rest of the day

CRAIG:
Now I've got to drive up to Glasgow and drop the wee man off at his mum's, and then drive back. I've got the two wains to two different mums, but the wee man, one of the boys, is going to Glasgow, so I've got to drop him off and then come back down.
I've got the wee man till Tuesday night, the youngest, so I've got to take him to school, then go to Glasgow, then come back, pick him up from school, do all that kind of stuff. Yeah, see if I could do that two or three days a week, yeah, I love that stuff. Love it.
See, just spending time with my... that's the thing I miss the most about me being a single dad, is not having my boys beside me. Because it's like my left and right arm, do you know? It feels like you're an amputee if you've not got the kids beside you.
It's like, you'll see something funny on the TV and just laugh and turn around, and the kid's not there. Yeah, that's a hard thing for me, mate.
And I could get deeper into the conversation with you, but you know yourself, guys are always put last. Yeah, that's society, mate. Society tells us we're the bad guys.
You split up with a woman, you get absolutely fuck all. A boy in work's getting married, mate, and I said to him, 'What are you getting out of it?'
He went, 'What do you mean, what am I getting?' I said, 'Well, excuse me, right, I'm not turning you off or anything, but what do you get out of a marriage?'
He said, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'Well, she gets a bit of paper, she gets 40 grand spent on a day, she's got security. What have you got?'
And he went, 'That's a good point. What am I getting?' To me, it's great security for a woman, do you know? And I say that, I've said it quite often, mate, women look for professionals, do you know?
So if things work out, great. But if things don't work out, they're protected, do you know? I think I'm nearly a grand... I pay more to my two ex-ladies than I do on my rent.
Really, that's crazy. I'm not kicking the arse off a grand. I pay them two, and I'm 950 for my rent every month.

JIMMY:
That's a killer mate yeah so that doesn't help at all with yeah

CRAIG:
with the struggles it really doesn't but again mate I think it's just saying do you know what it won't last forever do you know what what's the point in getting downbeat about these things do you know that's I think I said to you last time mate that's why I do mindfulness meditation yeah all these things mate because what's the point what's the point of letting that shit upset you.

JIMMY:
Yeah yeah that's right that's buddy yeah that's what it is yes right I'm gonna start recording that look I'm gonna I'm gonna let you I'll feel like we could talk all day oh I know I'm not gonna but um you get back to them and entertain them yeah. I’m going to stop this recording now. Take care brother.

CRAIG:
No problems take care mate. Have a good weekend.