"People First” Leadership Is Missing in Construction And It’s Costing You

Construction doesn’t fail because of process alone — it fails when the people behind it are overlooked. This episode looks at how a People First approach to leadership is reshaping the way projects are delivered and teams are managed on site.

Jonathan Cinelli brings decades of experience from within the construction industry, having worked as an electrician, led teams, and managed large-scale electrical projects. That experience now informs his approach to People First Leadership, a system built specifically for construction environments where performance, safety, and culture are closely linked.

His discussion with host Jimmy Webb explores how leadership decisions on site influence trust, communication, and team dynamics, and why many of the challenges seen across projects can be traced back to how people are managed. It also looks at the impact of generational differences, the pressures placed on site leaders, and the role leadership plays in addressing mental health and retention across the workforce.

Rather than relying on theory, the ideas shared are grounded in real site experience, with a focus on practical changes that can be applied across different levels of responsibility, from foremen and supervisors through to senior leadership.

This episode of the UK Construction Podcast also touches on how structured support, coaching, and leadership development can help create more resilient teams, reduce unnecessary friction, and improve overall project outcomes without adding complexity to already demanding roles.

Connect with Jonathan Cinelli:
People First Leadership website: https://www.peoplefirstleadership.ca/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cinelli-pmp-acc-103b841ba/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jonathanacinelli/ 

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https://web-motion.co.uk/

Special shoutout to our dynamic host Jimmy Webb of Construction Cogs: https://constructioncogs.com

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Transcript

From groundbreaking projects to game-changing innovations, the UK Construction podcast brings you face-to-face with the industry's brightest minds and boldest thinkers. Each episode features candid conversations with construction leaders, architects, engineers and on-site experts who share their hard-won insights and behind-the-scenes perspectives. 

We cut through the noise to deliver actionable intelligence on market trends, emerging technologies and the forces shaping British building. Hello everyone. We're covering an area that I work in today, lifting operations. 

JIMMY:
Welcome everyone. Jonathan has joined us all the way from Canada. How are you doing, mate?

I'm doing great. Thank you. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for giving your time. My pleasure. Yeah.

So Jonathan, why are you here today? Tell me.

JONATHAN:
You know what? It doesn't matter what side of the pond you're on, construction has its ways of being similar in so many different realms. And quite honestly, I love connecting with great people and you and I had a phenomenal conversation.

You welcomed me right away, which is so nice. And I'm all making a difference for people, right? You know, I've lived and breathed construction and it's pretty cool to know that we're five or six hours time difference and some of the shit we talk about, it's all the same stuff.

It's just carved differently. And I think that's what's so relevant. I mean, Toronto, Canada here, we get to, you know, a couple inches of snow outside today, early December.

And, you know, it's construction must go on. The show must go on. So here we are.

Yeah.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. You said that, actually, because that's literally on my notes here, the exact same thing.

I know we're in different zones, time zones and that, but construction is construction. You might have different regulations over there might have different terminology, but, you know, we're still in the grind, you know, the suicide rate is still high over there. We're still overworked and underpaid, you know what I mean?

So it's all the same shit we're dealing with. So thanks for sharing it all with us and chewing the fat about it all.

JONATHAN:
Yeah. And you hear some huge things, right? The things that don't get illuminated, how many, it's embarrassing.

I'm going to use that word purposefully. It's embarrassing how many deaths occur and are dismissed. Yeah.

There's always, there's always a reason. There's always some bullshit that comes along and the site gets shut down for a day, maybe, right? The Ministry of Labour comes in, does their investigation and all of a sudden life is supposed to progress as usual.

Nobody checks in. Nobody talks about it. There's some pretty embarrassing moments, right?

Yes.

JIMMY:
We will get into all that. We will get into that because it's really, you've got some interesting points about that. But first of all, can you tell us who you are and what you do?

JONATHAN:
Sure. Electrician by trade, retired. I found my niche in construction, actually, not working the sites after I worked the sites and ran the crews and led the teams there.

I pivoted into project management and this sort of, the backstory with all that is I was born into construction. I guess I should start there. I was born into it.

At eight years old, I was cleaning toilets and sweeping floors and we progressed the way we progressed. Electrical, man, that's my field of expertise, project management and running projects, leading teams, leading departments. We were $200 million of work, right?

Just in one scope, just in the electrical scope. I worked for a family business that we merged in 2005 and I stuck around, the company was Oz Electric for near to 20 years. And then I pivoted out.

I wrote a couple of books. I started a podcast and I followed a desire within me to train, educate, and share knowledge with other leaders out there of things I've learned over the decades of physically working it, being with the people, because I always gave a shit about the people. And so I took my knowledge and five years ago, I started People First Leadership and we are a training and executive leadership organization.

JIMMY:
Yeah. So People First, first of all, do you still do electrical work around the house or do you just not bother doing that?

JONATHAN:
The old adage of it's always the electrician's house that has a burnt out light bulb.

JIMMY:
Exactly that. I was just about to say that whatever trade you're in, there's always work that's not done on time and the wife's always nagging you about it. So I'm glad you're keeping up that tradition.

So why did you pivot out of that then? What made you change?

JONATHAN:
Oh, a couple of different things. For me to tell you, there's one big trigger. I started getting upset internally.

Every cell inside my body was getting twisted and I was asked to do things that were challenging my morals, ethics, my guiding compasses. And I was quite honestly getting pissed off that every time a project failed, it was the people, it was the foreman, it was the guys on site, it was the bullshit. And yet every time it succeeded, it was like the exact opposite.

Yeah, we had a lot of change orders and things went well. And while all those metrics could have been true, and in some cases they were, what about the people doing the projects who oftentimes got dismissed? And I started to get really twisted, whether it be with subcontractors or large contractors, which are nationwide and worldwide.

And I'm not going to mention their names because we can all pin who they are. I started to try to sweep shit under the rug. And that started to challenge me.

And I was like, no. And I was asked to do things like, can you fire this guy? Nope.

I want to work with this client. I'm like, I don't give a shit. This guy was an asshole before.

Yeah, but here's the carrot. They're going to give us a lot more work. Not my problem.

And eventually, I took a stand and I just started to realize how much different can our industry be when we take a people-first approach and we actually give a damn about the people. So I pivoted out.

JIMMY:
Good. Fair play to you. It takes a lot of balls.

And I mean, it's a risk anyway, isn't it, doing what you've done? It's a big risk. For all manner of reasons, really, financially and everything.

But it's admirable. But the people-first thing, I mean, it kind of speaks for itself what that term is. But what's your perspective?

What's your definition?

JONATHAN:
My definition of that is when we choose to wholeheartedly lead with a people-centric approach, everything changes. Every conversation, every task, every connection. You see, without presence, we can't form connection.

And without connection, trust never forms. And if trust never forms, we have nothing else. Because trust is the currency of the future.

If I trust you, then everything else organically occurs. There's so many times I would walk on a job site. I didn't give a shit how somebody ran the damn conduit.

He's the expert. Let him do his job. But what I do care is like, hey, man, what's going on in your world?

How's your wife? How's your dog? How's your kids?

How's hockey? Because when you have a shit day at home or something else is weighing you down, guess what? We get distracted.

We get injured. Efficiencies go down. People don't sleep well.

So then when you take that approach, and I teach our construction leaders and our project managers, when you actually give a damn about people and you stay curious what's going on in their world, everything else shifts. Of course the profits are going to occur. That's organic, man.

But some businesses, you know, you treat them here because most construction businesses in Toronto, I'm going to say this wholeheartedly, haven't asked backwards. Let's drive profits on the backs of people, and then maybe if there's something left, we'll take care of the people. No, stupid.

And I say that purposefully. When you look after the people, the people will build the business. When it was part of running the projects, I would transparently share information, because when you give people information and you allow them the autonomy to make your own decisions, then they contribute.

And if they contribute, then life is easier, isn't it?

JIMMY:
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there's so many ways I can relate to this.

It reminds me actually of my last guest I interviewed. He owns an energy efficiency and retrofit company. There's about four people in his company.

And what he's trying to do is he's trying to build them up and he's trying to train them so that they actually own part of the company themselves as well. So they share it all together, rather than him being the boss. So you do that, you do that.

He wants it so that they all have part ownership, so that they all care as much. So put as much care into it as what he does, so that they all feel important, just like he does. And I think that's brilliant.

So it's growing together. But also, I mean, I've been on so many construction sites over the years. It's amazing the different kind of interaction you get from project managers, all that sort of stuff.

Some people don't give it a time of day. Some people, they'll stop you in the corridor. How you doing, Jim?

Like, want to know about your life, want to know about what's going on. And it's not fake. And you really can tell the difference.

It does make you feel like, you know, they care. It's really important.

JONATHAN:
This is the thing, right? So you said two things, a couple of things here. I'm going to say, I'm going to generalize.

Most entrepreneurs want to grow their business to sell it, most, right? Or they want to pass it to the legacy, whatever their thing is, right? And many don't even have a succession plan.

And they just burn themselves out, right? So how do you pivot around that? The gentleman you're talking about is brilliant.

And that's what, you know, everything I do is about that. When you build up the people around you, they're organically going to carry you. So that, you know, the invisible loads we carry, right?

Especially as men, as providers and protectors and all, and I'm generalizing that most of construction, right? There's a lot of burden there. So why don't, why wouldn't I want to share that burden?

And of course, sharing that burden means sharing the reward.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Of course. Right. And it starts as simple as something, you mentioned it, right?

How many, and I'm going to say this purposely, how many jerks are there out there that walk a construction site, right? Like they own the place. Listen, man, you see somebody in, you see somebody in the hallway, head up, shoulders back, good day.

Stick your head and shake their hand.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. But I think there's some nuance to this though, because you know, I've come across some people, I mean, for instance, I worked for a, a contractor once, and one of the directors there, he was like that, never gave the time done.

I thought, he's a proper dick. You know, every time we was walking, this was when I was a groundworker, we was in the shit, the mud, pissing down with rain. Like the morale was really bad.

It was freezing cold winter. And like, just walked straight past and I was thinking, you fucking idiot, but, and this was all the time, but then maybe a year or so later, we did a private job at his house, building an extension. He'd lost a load of weight and he was the nicest, most humble person you can meet.

And he actually said himself, when he was overweight, he had real confidence issues, you know, and I think that's, could be part of it as well. Some, you know, some people in management that maybe they're not be quite, might not be quite confident in the role that they're doing. They've just been promoted or whatever that, you know, they might a little feel out of place because I've experienced that as well.

Maybe they have to put on a bit of a front, you know, sort of like, you know, I'm not going to be broken. You can't treat me like shit, that sort of thing. Do you know what I mean?

JONATHAN:
Yes. And can I challenge that?

JIMMY:
Go on.

JONATHAN:
So there are, you can only ever have two things in life, right? Expectations or agreements. So, you know, if, if I don't have agreements on how I'm supposed to show up and what I'm supposed to do, then it all becomes expectations.

And yes, I agree with you. There are some folks out there who have the expectations of the stories and the considerations in their own header. I must show up this way.

And I'm going to challenge it and say, what if you didn't? What if you, what if you vulnerably said, look, man, I don't know this answer, right? So help me out here.

And it starts with doing the work yourself. This is the part of the thing most people overlook. You're no different than mastering any craft.

Like I use electrical. Electrical is a perfect example. You know, you got to dig the ditch.

Well, I don't want to dig the ditch. Well, who's going to dig the damn ditch, man? You got to do the work.

So you got to do the self before I can lead anybody else. I need to have the courage and bravery and balls to look within and say, like, where are my blind spots? And if I don't know my blind spots, I better ask people around me because they'll tell me.

JIMMY:
Yeah, absolutely. Reminded me of when you said that, who's going to dig that? You remind me of David Goggins.

And who's going to carry the boats?

JONATHAN:
Yeah.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yes, that's right. And I'm really good.

I mean, I'm in the same sort of ethos, really. I like I wrote an article about it, actually. I'm really big on rapport, building a rapport with people, whoever it is, whether it's a cleaner in the toilet, whether it's a director of site.

I like to build a rapport with people because, you know, like you say, that connection, you don't know what's going on in people's lives. You don't know what shit they're going through. You know, why not shed a little bit of light, a bit of lightness in their lives and, you know, make the day go a little bit more pleasantly than what it might do.

You know, I mean, right, right. Yeah. And smile, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

JONATHAN:
You know, I tell our children this and I use children as a great example. I thought until I'm like, hey, guys, you know what happens when you smile at somebody? What dad?

What dad? I mean, they smile back.

JIMMY:
Yeah, I might keep reminding me of things. So when my son, I mean, he's grown up moved out now. But when he we moved when he was young, and he moved to a new primary school, like, I don't know what, but so that's kind of like four to 11 years old.

Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Yeah.

JIMMY:
So he was he's just moved there. And there was a teacher that he couldn't quite gel with a really big, tall fella, Mr. Buckle. And he couldn't quite get couldn't quite work him out.

And he thought he kept saying he doesn't like me doesn't like me. And I said to him, right, when you go into school tomorrow, when you walk across the playground, and you see him put a picture on the wall on our living room wall of my son with a big smile said, put that smile on your face and said, Hello, Mr. Buckle. And he did this that and Mr. Buckle stopped and he chatted to him. He said, Hello, Charlie, how you doing? And there you go. The smile.

JONATHAN:
And, and yet we go through the course of life. And some things we we forget. Yeah, the simple things.

JIMMY:
Yeah, that's it. That's it. What have we got?

Oh, your LinkedIn profile says I need to define what's next for me and my team. And I'll need a little support to get there. What does that mean?

JONATHAN:
Well, this is talking about the self awareness that was touching on before, right? Where it's like, hey, I'm now a project manager, I need to know what's next for me. Where do I go from here?

What do I do next? How do I get the support? Because now all of a sudden, holy shit, I'm confronted, I gotta run, I gotta lead people, I gotta run teams.

I've never done this. I'm a great craftsman. Right?

I know electrical, I'm a great electrician. And now all of a sudden, it's like, this happens, right? Jonathan, you're a great electrician.

We want you to become a project manager. Here's a laptop. You know, here's a business card, high five, bum top, rock and roll.

But now what? Right? So that's what I'm saying.

It's like, you know, people get promoted into positions are like, shit, what do I do next? Yeah, my team, and I don't know what I don't know.

JIMMY:
What if you don't know? What do you mean? What if you don't know?

Well, if you if you don't know what's next for you, if you don't know what you're doing?

JONATHAN:
Oh, see, this is so great question. If you don't know what's next for you. And you're willing to commit to doing the work dig in.

I assure you it'll show up. It might not be one month, it might not be three months, it might not be a year. And over time, there's going to be symmetries, there's going to be things there's going to be triggers.

There's powers, I believe, there's powers greater than you and I that are sending us signals. And what happens is we get so distracted and incubated in the distractions of life that we don't necessarily hear them. So if you don't know what's next, that's the shit that excites me.

I'm like, Ooh, where do you want to start, man? Where do you want to start? Right?

You and I, you were talking earlier about, you know, a solid workplace solitude. Maybe you just need to go away by yourself for a weekend. Yeah.

And take a book. Blank pages. Yeah.

Right. And, you know, the old adage of going for a walk, whatever, going for a walk is magical, but whatever it is for you, there's a whole boatload of tools, tips and techniques that I don't need to get into you. And I know these and the internet's fantastic for that.

But yeah, you got to commit to the work.

JIMMY:
Absolutely.

JONATHAN:
And I think just just, you know, one last thing, because here's the thing, I want to say this, too. I remind folks all the time, like think of elite athletes, right? If I'm an elite athlete at the top of the top of my game, I don't know what's next.

And you know who does? My coaches around me, the people who see me every day. You've got to trust in the people and lean into them.

If you don't know what's next, then find the right people who can guide you there. Get yourself a coach, a mentor, like somebody you can you can bring them to.

JIMMY:
Yeah, I agree. I agree. But I think I think curiosity is really important.

You got to be curious all the time. It's kind of why I do what I do. I kind of I kind of have a plan.

But I'm also curious as to where certain areas are going to take me. And my wife always tells me, you know, you're taking too much on. You shouldn't be doing this.

You shouldn't do that. But it all kind of ties in together. And I want to see where it takes me, you know, even if I don't know what I'm doing, I just find myself into it.

JONATHAN:
Thank you for sharing that. You kind of gave me some confirmation bias, very much the same way. My wife says that, too.

I'm like, you're doing too many things. Am I? Because everything I'm doing is about teaching and sharing information and shame on me for not sharing information.

And I'm not I don't know at all. Challenge me. Tell me.

Give me a different perspective so that maybe it's so that I can, you know, have a really good conversation with you and learn something.

JIMMY:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. What about neuroscience?

You draw neuroscience in your coaching. Is that right? Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Talk about that then.

JONATHAN:
Oh, my gosh. The human brain is fascinating. Period.

We and when we understood. So I have the pleasure of being educated in neuroscience. So I understand ways that the brain works, right at a high.

I'm not a neurosurgeon by any means. And when you understand that no two brains think alike. And that's the starting point.

You start with curiosity. You said it, right? I don't think the same way you think.

I have a twin brother. I have a twin brother. We're five minutes apart.

I don't think the way he thinks. Of course, he doesn't think that right. And like, you don't get any identical twins five minutes apart.

You don't get any closer to that closer than that. And so if I don't think the same way as my biological twin brother, imagine everybody else in the world.

JIMMY:
Yeah. So you did. So you did higher education, did a degree in that psychology type thing.

Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Not a degree. I did multiple different trainings. I was to the Neural Leadership Institute.

I've met I'm an education junkie. So they've got a laundry list of.

JIMMY:
That's cool. So did you do that purely to give yourself the tools for what you're doing now or just that curiosity again?

JONATHAN:
I had no idea. I had no idea. I knew I was I was still in the project management realm.

And this is an interesting story. I had a friend that I hadn't seen in 15 years, maybe more. And he came to my house one day because he came with one of my other friends.

My friend James said, I'm bringing a guest. Cool. And his name was Yashar.

And I Yashar saw something in my house. We have a whiteboard fan. So I have all kinds of quotes and ideas and stuff on a whiteboard.

And I want to get my life coaching certification, whatever that meant at the time, because I was just passionate about people. And this must have been 20. I don't know.

It doesn't. It was a while ago. And Yashar introduced me to this.

He said, listen, the International Coaches Federation, Neural Leadership Institute. It's pretty phenomenal. I knew nothing.

I flew to California, USA, and I took a week off work and I found myself in this program with 200 other professionals. And they're looking at me like you're in construction. What are you doing here?

Because nobody. And my answer was, I'm not sure yet. But there's a desire inside of me to learn more about the human brain so that I can connect with people.

And if that translates into the work that I do today, cool. I didn't know. And it changes everything for me.

Everything.

JIMMY:
Wow. That's cool. It's good.

I think it's great to to to get these tools, own it, just get as many tools as you can under your belt, get as much knowledge as you can. Definitely. Particularly when you're doing when you're working with people and people skills and coaching and stuff like that, why not know how the brain works?

JONATHAN:
Well, look, if the flip side of that is, you know. To a hammer, the adage of like to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I can't take the same tool and smash them around.

They may not serve well. It might not serve well. So explore different things.

And if it serves well, cool. And if it doesn't. So what you learn something.

JIMMY:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Accountability.

Talk to me about that.

JONATHAN:
I'm going to say something that's going to trigger most people. It doesn't fucking exist anymore. That's the problem.

You think? In our culture right now, the biases and the lenses through which I see things, it's the exact opposite. There's always a cover your ass.

There's always, well, this person told me this. This person told me this. Like, holy shit, man.

Holy shit. Just chill. Accountability for me is taking responsibility for the things you do, say, or allow to occur.

Stop. So if you allowed something to occur and you didn't agree with it, then shame on you for not taking a stand or not bringing it up. You don't have to publicly bring it up.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah, I'm similar to that. So for me, it's taking responsibility for myself and for other people's actions.

Basically, yeah. So and even like, you know, if there's someone who's a little bit green, a little bit inexperienced, can you take them under your wing? If they say to you that I'm quite nervous, rather than shouting at them, or, you know, putting the blame on them for things, take a bit responsibility for them, take them under your wing and teach them the way, which is what you're doing anyway.

Yeah. But you're right in that. Yeah, everything these days is built around covering our own arses, isn't it?

Particularly in the bigger organisations. You know, all these contracts you have to sign and all this paperwork and all this and this, I'll be able to sign this, sign that, memos, emails. Got to cover your own arses, man.

That's what it's all about. Yeah.

JONATHAN:
You know, and you said something that sort of struck a nerve with me when you talk about new individuals and people who are green who don't yet know. I want to volley this out to the professionals out there. And even if this one thing sticks in your head, it might not be your fault, the way something occurred.

And it's most certainly your responsibility to fix it.

JIMMY:
Mm hmm.

JONATHAN:
Support them. Take accountability for it. Right.

Hey, man, I got you. Right. And this might not be the it's a less than desirable outcome.

So what do we do next? And, you know, contracts is such an interesting thing because it's like bullshit after bullshit sometimes. And I'll say to folks, go through the contract.

Yeah, but if I mark up the contract, you know, I won't get the job. Okay. And if you don't mark up the contract and you're automatically sending a signal to them, to whoever that is, is that you're relinquishing power right away.

JIMMY:
Mm hmm. Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Mark it up. Go through it. Like, listen, man, I don't agree with this or I have a different thought.

It's not a it's not a it's not a it's not a tug of war. It's not like a zero sum game. Nobody has something doesn't have to win.

Somebody has to lose. You can have a conversation about it. What do we do in this scenario?

JIMMY:
Yeah, that's a tricky one, particularly depends what kind of contract is. I mean, if you've got your tier one companies, a lot of some of the tier one companies, they try and tie you up in so much jargon and so many clauses. It's almost like they want you to fail or almost like they want you to go bankrupt.

Do you know what I mean? For instance, my cousin, I mentioned this in the last podcast, actually. He's a ground worker and he priced up to do some piling for a massive, massive, massive company.

And they sent him this document like that, you know, and he's dyslexic, you can't read, he took it around his friend's house and his friend looked through this and he said, mate, don't even go near that. Don't even go anywhere near that. They're going to tie you up in so many loops and you're just going to fall, mate.

Whereas I think you should be, they should be doing it where it's everybody's happy. Everyone gets a piece of the cake and everyone, you know, everyone's happy. Everyone ends up living.

That's why it should be done, I think. But it's not done that way, is it?

JONATHAN:
No. And that's the old adage of like, we celebrate as contractors. Hey, we won the job.

Cool. Then the contract hits and you know, the next thing that goes through our head is, how am I going to get fucked? Right?

These guys want to screw me, right? So you said something that I want, I challenge folks to have the courage sometimes to say straight out what's there. Hey, listen, you know, Jonathan, I read through this and it doesn't sit right.

JONATHAN:
Well for me, so Do you want me to fail? Nobody wants you to fail. Why what do you mean?

Well now we have a conversation, right? Because if I follow this the scope of work, I'm already set up for failure This wasn't exactly how we envisioned it like Here's what I would tell our folks. You know, one of the leading teams are running teams When you strip back the basics and remember that every person is a human being Everything changes We all have good moments and less than desirable moments and we all have days where we don't sleep We all have days where we're pissed and day and days where we're not Talk to the person and if you can meet them and shake their hand and have a you know, a Drink together a cup of coffee, whatever your drink of choices.

JIMMY:
I don't care or a meal together everything comes down Yeah, that's the thing because Yeah, because most people Most people have empathy don't they? You know, most people can relate to people's lives Most people care deep down. There are fewer they're not, you know, some people are quite high on the psychopathic scale Some people just want the power above all else and regardless of how they get it But yeah, you are I think on a one-to-one if you go one-to-one to someone and you know, you connect with them Oh, there is a chance that you that they'll they'll be a middle ground

JONATHAN:
Yeah, and if there isn't Well, there's a trigger man. We haven't even started the job and there's already conflict.

JIMMY:
Yeah How much of that do you have to deal with as a project manager then all that sort of stuff?

JONATHAN:
As far as what going to the contract?

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Yeah, I think it's Fundamental underpinning if I don't know the contract and the scope of work, how can I communicate that to our team? I share the scope of work guys Here's what we agreed to because you know what I was hop in electrical world is like why do we agree to this pipe? Well, I don't know Right.

Well, it's in our scope of work So what if I how does things change when I share that with our former with our team with our team leaders to say? Guys, this is the scope that we're building, right? Anybody have any any any thoughts to you know, I mean cool ideas actually came out of that before we signed the contract I'm like, hey, man What do you think of this?

Like I don't like that. I now have to go back to this box three times I'm like, holy shit. I didn't think of that.

Thank you And guess what? It was a simple thing that it was this was like putting a cover on a box I'm like, we're not gonna put the cover in a box. The paint is gonna do it Do you know what it was for the general contractor?

He's like, yeah, okay Give me the covers right for our team. That was like a lifesaver When you've got a thousand covers, you don't have to put on now because you brought them into the conversation See the role of a project manager is an integrator Integrate all the moving pieces and you know the moving pieces are people Yep.

JIMMY:
Yep. That's um, well, that's my tagline for construction cogs Basically, you know each each trade each person in the construction industry is a cog that keeps a construction machine moving So I like to speak to those cogs find out what what makes them move See it seems like I mean do you get stressed with it all does it make you stressed does it make me stressed

JONATHAN:
What specifically what do you mean by that

JIMMY:
Well, it seems like you've got a lot going on. You've got the project management You got your teaching and all the rest of it is it's a lot. You said your wife tells you you're doing too much The do you suffer from burnout?

JONATHAN:
Do you get stressed out? Yeah, absolutely. So so the answer is Hell, yes.

Yeah, I Have extreme highs and I've learned that I have extreme lows too. So as my highs are getting higher My lows are coming higher, too So The cool part is yes, you get you become resilient, you know, like hey, I've gone down that roller coaster I don't have the same fear, but then you go to the next roller coaster and it's even a scarier. So oh yeah, man, I I go through periods of burnout and I Have to go through massive recalibration now How yeah Okay Fantastic question this first of all I do I do the work myself, right?

I'm constantly Journaling. I mean I've created my own journals so much that I just I'm a journaling guy and I said if I can create my own journals I'll share them with the world because this is what works for me and I Write a lot. So I journal I get it all over my head.

I have a bunch of techniques one I call them the the brain dump, which is where I literally write everything down every all the shit that's in my head I write it down. I mean it's pissing me off bothering me. I the things I'm struggling with and I never read it again.

And the next time I write over it I write over it and I write over it So eventually what I get is I get a piece of paper. There's nothing that black lines and then I burn it and it's a release for me there's a Bunch of different practices man. Like I hold myself to high standards, right?

It's Emotional physical spiritual well-being constantly I will Sense of sensory deprivation is a huge thing for me cold plunges I'll go away to retreats. What I have massive breakdowns and After the breakdowns create space for breakthroughs and the breakthroughs don't occur unless you do them work So there's so much more to that I mean I can unpack all that but there's I take yeah It's really important to do that it's really important to It's important to know what makes you you as well.

JIMMY:
I think Whatever is that you do in life? Whatever. I mean you for you.

You've got your hockey That's part of you It's important to do those things to because sometimes we forget who we are don't be a little bit We forget what makes us us whether it's family. Maybe someone goes fishing whatever and Gets so caught up in all the rat race and the work and everything and it's just like whoa Just to strip it back a little bit strip back slow down do the things you enjoy. I Mean we've been we've been sort of trying to organize this around my football matches and your hockey games Coach as well, don't you?

So that's important.

JONATHAN:
Yes and you brought something in one of them before you pivot because the one thing you brought up is a Big exercise is I asked myself Then I found this because I hit a burnout period and I was like, holy shit I don't know what brings me joy anymore like the things that once brought me joy Are they still serving me? Well, and I had to really recalibrate on that too Like there's no there's no magic pill and there's no one thing. It's a constant Evolution and it's a constant.

JIMMY:
Oh my gosh Yeah, yeah, it's important to have a strong network around you as well for family wife Strong woman strong woman to keep in check and just to take the load off you a little bit. I watched a Nice night when I brown look wonderful Canadian woman. Yep She was saying that her and her husband.

They've got like this thing where Let's say she comes home and she might say I'm running I'm running on 10% or he comes home goes I'm running on 10 or 20% today. She would go. Don't worry.

I've got you. I'll take the extra 80% No worries I've got your brother and it's kind of you know Having that little bit of support network to someone to take the load a little bit definitely but not everyone's got that and that's why sometimes People find themselves in the situation that they're in In industry and also Sometimes they have got it, but they don't Open up to it. I don't let people know I don't tell them, you know, I am really struggling there You know, they just they just soldier on and just plow through I've got to be strong.

I've got to be the provider I've got to be this I've got to be that I can't be seen as being weak. I'll be weak.

JONATHAN:
You know, I mean We get a lot of that Yeah, and especially been in construction right? We're problem solvers. Give me a problem.

I solve it.

JIMMY:
Yeah exactly But you I mean you help people this you you help people with burnout and pressure Don't you do do you kind of teach these kind of strategies strategies that you help yourself with and you know Pass it on to them.

JONATHAN:
Oh, absolutely You know I'm the first guy to say I'm never gonna share something or Provide a tool that I haven't yet explored myself because who the hell am I to tell you how to do it? Yeah, I'm gonna tell you what what I've experienced how it served me and if this serves you well cool Here's the journal I created I don't care if it's this journal or another journal I don't care if you write it by hand or digital or like you know, I'm just gonna share what's top of mind and What might serve you well because at some point in my life, I didn't know what I didn't know I didn't know what a coach did Right.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah Life coaching you said coach so life life coaching. Do you?

Would you advertise for that do you highly recommend life coaches? Oh my gosh, absolutely. Yeah, you have them yourself.

JONATHAN:
Yeah Absolutely Yeah at this period of time. I think this is I probably have the most coaches in my life today Than ever before it's for so many different realms Wow, right because you find the right people and Saying I want to know more about you and I want to connect So what options are there for people who can't afford that oh There's there's always something right there's always something it started the conversation like how many times have you Myself, like I I offer the service.

I'm here to help man You know, sometimes it's one simple conversation that can save somebody and change their world Now fulfilling that is yeah, absolutely Because it's like well It's not about money the minute you the minute look money's a tool right it creates experiences for us and The the you know, the edge of money is the root of all evil. I don't subscribe to that Money is not the root of all evil the desire to constantly chase money Is what drives the evil and the greed? So what if you strip that back and your primary thing is like how can I be of service to this person at this moment?

in time Yeah Like hey this now help you What I Challenge people to say like what if we just helped folks? So I tell you because I didn't get to where I am without help from people. What if you just help somebody?

Yeah, I know that It's going to come around some at some point in time or it won't but regardless You made a difference for that person.

JIMMY:
Yeah Yeah, pass it down You got the coaching you provide is it is it mainly for the leaders in construction?

JONATHAN:
Yeah, it's it's one-on-one in group coaching with construction leaders right form and project managers I shouldn't say like That's where it starts and guess what I start there because It's an it's a more impactful conversation if the guy that's running the site's a dick Then organically it's going to shift downstream, right? So the answer is it's actually a top-down bottom-up approach Right. It's actually Holistically all-inclusive we start with the leaders because once the leaders get it and once the leaders See the difference that connecting and having conversations with somebody Makes then they're they're organically gonna send it downstream Hopefully hopefully well, but here's the thing right when you touch move and inspire somebody energy shifts Right.

Holy shit, Jonathan. You look different. What are you doing, man?

What's a drug you're taking? There's no drug. I talked to this guy.

I talked to this guy. I talked to this guy.

JIMMY:
Oh Okay Yeah, well speaking of leaders when we spoke a few weeks ago on the phone. You mentioned a Friend of all yours that you pulled up Dinner he was at a dinner you pulled him up on time because he was being a bit of a dick remember that no

JONATHAN:
Yeah, yeah Yeah But you want that whole story yeah, I was an interesting story so we're group of guys that you know, we would get together every couple of months and Have a steak dinner right, you know, what better thing I have a steak dinner and and shoot the shit and you know talk about how Big everybody's slung is and egos and everything else and have fun and there's always banter, of course Well in this one situation this gentleman that I know very well, and I love him to death. I Called him.

I don't I told him he's an asshole and he's like what and the store this it started because he was telling me about one of the sites so he is a Construction director, you know, he's pretty high up in the organization And there's one said that they've been having a challenge with for a while where You talk about accountability things were going people would get injured near misses 

Silly stuff was occurring and there was a couple of injuries already Well one night unfortunately, there was a gentleman who obviously had a bunch of shit going on Mentally physically spiritually and chose to end his life And how he did that was he had this all planned out. He had waited thought everybody Exited the site went across the street you know got himself a sandwich. 

And we know this because it was all caught on on on video. Climbs the tower crane and jumps to his death middle of the night. It's caught on all these cameras. Guys coming in the morning and You know, you can imagine what that's like you find a dead body there that these guys have worked side-by-side with. 

And there's a few more details to the story, but this gentleman here he was telling about the story and I'm like Oh shit, man, like what the hell happened?

How'd you take care of that? What did you do next? That's a big deal, especially because it was caught on camera and it went across social media and it was like blowing up You got this there's there's hundreds of guys working this site from multiple trades He looks at me goes, what do you mean?

How did it go? Yeah It cost me six grand. I called the guys in to clean up the blood take care of the body Miss you labor came in we shut down for half a day and we reopen the next day and I looked at him And I'm like, you're a fucking asshole You're an asshole And it cut him off.

What do you mean? What do you mean like? That's terrible.

Look at all these lives. They got impacted and Nobody says shit. What are all these other guys struggling with?

You know there's a missed opportunity that nobody checked in with this gentleman before you're telling me that he worked with hundreds of guys throughout the entire day and Nobody knew This guy was going through shit What a terrible fucking environment, man And now we have a life and how many other live not and you you just throw money at it clean it up and say well That's okay. So what message I said, yeah, nobody gives a shit and if this happens again So what?

JIMMY:
Yeah, there's a trick. I mean two things there. I'll challenge one thing what you said there It's not always easy to tell sometimes when people are going through this.

They're the ones that can hide it the most They're the ones that way smiling laughing so it's not I mean I've had it similar experience myself a good friend of mine that tried to in his life and Just didn't know just it just didn't know.

I mean we knew he was a little bit down and people get down and you know We check up and and that sort of stuff, but it's not always easy to know when someone's going through that sort of shit I mean, I've been through it myself in the past when I was young had a breakdown I didn't tell anybody nobody knew nobody checked up on me. 

I mean so that so there is that expect but on the flip side It's a classic case of what you mentioned earlier a case of profit over people Isn't it that guy was expect, you know, he's disposable just moved on get the next one in Yeah, absolutely.

JONATHAN:
And hang on. Let's let's rewind this. Let's go back to I Agree with you that yeah, we don't always know and that's the hardest part fine fine, but and Then that's not Fluff people and throw useless propaganda around how about mental health we give a shit.

We give a shit bullshit. You give a shit What are you actually doing about it, what are we actually doing about it because there are so many platform, yes, there are there are Times where we don't know. 

And there are also see the human body gives off signals right we just be ready and attuned to them they're idiosyncrasies to say like You know, I noticed Jonathan's not eating or I noticed like something's up. 

He's usually smokes a pack of say I don't smoke but you know, he smokes a couple of cigarettes a day and he's not and he's he's like when we check on people and Wholeheartedly, you put your hand on somebody's shoulder.

Hey, man, you've been looking you look like shit the last couple days.

JIMMY:
You cool Even if they say no that might just be the piece of the puzzle Yes, it's a It does give what it does give signal my wife assigned something of a day actually She read something that we're actually goes a lot deeper than that It might sound a little bit woo-woo, but I can't remember all the technicalities that she was talking about. 

But you know, even like Your mindset and what you watch and what you take in That obviously affects you but it also affects your bloodline as well So that information that you're taking in or that what you're projecting can affect your bloodline without you even knowing it I mean you probably find that yourself with you with your twin Definitely.

JONATHAN:
Yeah so I Want to hang out in this space because see this gets back to how much work you want to do for yourself. I Want to say I believe because it's more than I believe it gives me shivers. Oh We can sense the energy of other people We can sense the energy And we have to be we have to be ready to receive that yeah, the challenge with most of us is we're too Distracted or consumed, you know.

I have another coffee have another, you know, just keep moving and but there are times and I invite people to think about this.

There are times where you get a chill or you just know Yeah I'm gonna there's I'm gonna share a story just just be I When you start to know people so well, so there's this gentleman Sam I Never forget this right? 

It was it was years and years of fostering a relationship and we got to know each other through connection he was leading a site and I was a project project manager at the time and Man you know so much about people and there was one day where I walked into the to the site office I Was faking it right I was faking it like yeah, I got You know the widgets that the here's the tasks. Here's a Sam.

Here's information. You need to know you need to whatever whatever It didn't matter. I was fine.

I was clearly messed up. I Left site and I got in the truck and I started, you know, drive back to the office and he called me and He's like you look pretty fucked up man Like what's going on with you? And I Had shit going on And he sensed it.

He knew it why because he gave a shit because we connected as human beings because there was trust Because I would do the same thing for him.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Yeah, so yeah, we can tell

JIMMY:
Yeah, you're absolutely right But it's only if people are intuitive and people are engaged Like you said not distracted, it's interesting not it goes back to the people skills thing, you know that the people first thing he was talking about. 

But when I When I first became a crane operator, they took us away from induction weekend We went on a people skills course and off we were thinking I was all this bullshit man What you know rubbish isn't it? But it was really interesting and the lady was teaching it.

She did this task She said to me right leave the room. She come out and said to me “think of a really a story about yourself or some sort of story that you're gonna go in there and tell the Group, I think there was about a to eight of them in there So I thought all right then went back in there, but I didn't realize she told them when he comes in 

Pay no attention to him, you know do whatever it is You do without actually listen to him and it's I came and sat down I start telling my story my mate next to me was on his phone texting which pisses me off To start with two other people writing something down on a notebook Someone else is reading something and I could feel my blood boiling. I could feel raging Inside and it worked and that was just classic example of engagement.

It just worked on me, you know Not none of them were engaged at all. So When you do engage, yeah, you do notice these things It starts with this right?

JONATHAN:
I'm reaching my phone this folks. This is a tool Yeah, yet so many people we so many of us lean into it as vices yeah and The one thing that shifted everything for me is Absolute presence when I'm with somebody, you know, this is on do not disturb And most it's on the charger now, but I'm also it's in my pocket because my time with you is priority and how many times I'm on a job site and somebody's like Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Oh, yeah. Hang on. Well, you just don't again He told me that whatever the hell we're talking about It's empty meaningless and you don't and I don't give a shit You know, I do what I do when I do that.

JIMMY:
I just stop talking Absolutely, just don't talk. Yeah, if then it's not least for me. I just don't talk to him.

I'll just walk away big sentence Yeah, yeah Actually, yeah, I actually saw I saw an Instagram post about that that you did the other day actually I've been a while ago, but that's a tool. But do you find that? When you're not around people as well because I have a real struggle with the phone when when I'm up the crane when I'll crane operating Because it's such high concentration In between lists.

I might skip it break get my phone out just quickly flick through something but I try and I'm trying to train myself if I'm gonna Consume I'm gonna try and make it productive and educational but then I've got a concentrate on it so I Then I just found myself looking at easy stuff just quick easy funny things and I'm having a real real battle with it at the moment real battle with it just Obviously, I need a break from what I'm doing but try and make it not that you know I mean, do you find that it's all to find yourself a voice when you're on your own

JONATHAN:
The answer is it depends in the situation. We all get sucked into it We all get sucked into doom scrolling at some point in time. Yeah, and it starts with self-awareness Right, you you just demonstrated it you have the self-awareness, you know Other things you can and sometimes there's there's times which is like right now I just want to consume useless content and that's okay without shame and blame.

Yeah, right It's you know, if it becomes a habit, well now maybe I need to address this What happens is, you know Sometimes a new part of a great scenario because there's so many construction professionals that find themselves isolated right in machines and operating so If you're not consuming Content like educational content to get yourself better than just what happens I

f you just sit around for for a minute or two yeah, it's like I know in in downtown toronto It's it's terrible. You can walk the streets and people's heads are buried in their phones Yeah sit on a park bench and just watch Yes

JIMMY:
Yeah, boredom is good sometimes What's the thing about that actually boredom is quite important something not necessarily boredom, but just nothingness just nothingness because you you might you take things in sometimes when you get nothing and sometimes you get that little spark of Inspiration.

JONATHAN:
Yeah, this is this is a big thing. I is I we go back to children. Our children says i'm bored.

You know, my response is Fantastic because when you're bored, guess what happens creativity is invoked. Yeah, you come up with ideas Like anything that's been created in this world has been created by humankind, right? It's happened twice.

It's happened once in our minds and then once in reality and it doesn't happen when we're distracted and consumed by shit right You know the the the iphone right? Well, it was a crazy ridiculous freaking idea. It doesn't just like hey, you know what?

It came out of something it came out of time and space it came out but everything everything is created From it's that everything is created from nothingness and what that means to me is If i'm distracted I don't have the time and space Exactly to become creative Yes, exactly.

JIMMY:
That's Yeah, i'm really working on that being a creator and not a consumer be creative and not consume. Yeah, I think it's quite important I just want to go back to something that you mentioned earlier about about Giza as being an asshole because I forgot to mention something. 

So um When he opened the site again half a day later the next day Is that the type of thing that will happen if there's like a major incident as well or an accident or something like that?

will it just carry on or will there be like a Um, I think you call it. Is it oh hsa or something? Lsha or something the regulators will people come down and investigate while sites closed or yes Yes.

JONATHAN:
Yeah. Yes now that doesn't always take it depends on the scenario, right? Yeah, but most times There's a lot of financial pressures to open the site as fast as humanly possible, right?

So do they shut down for a day? perhaps right, and i'm not painting the picture to say that You know the general contracts and employer and and subtrades everybody's um Negligent because there are some programs right that is like, you know, some Organizations do send counselors down and do check in on people. There is some I don't see damage control, but there's some mitigation right?

Like there's some after work but we know It's not enough.

JIMMY:
We know that suicide rates are on the high like it's it's it's It's at an all-time high It's an all-time high Yes, it is and It brings me on to the retention rate So what I mean, what's the retention rate out there because the retention rate here is quite low because Construction isn't very attractive So even for like apprentices apprentices will come in they might come in and Think right. I haven't had to pay for qualification and then all of a sudden They look at it and think actually this isn't where I want to be at all. I'm getting out of here You know what?

JONATHAN:
Don't complete their apprenticeships. We've got a dying industry. Right now, right now, our industry is hurting in Toronto.

Not hurting, it's crippled. Not only do we have a work shortage, we have a dying industry because we have a work shortage, we have a skilled labour shortage because people are leaving the industry because they've got to support their families and people are not getting into the industry.

JIMMY:
Yeah, we have exactly the same thing here actually. We've got exactly the same thing here. And the problem is, our new government, they want to build 5 million homes in the next few years, but they're not going to have any people to build these homes.

So something's got to be done. Something's got to give. Yeah, so I mean, are we going to overcome this?

It's a huge problem, isn't it? Like you say, people do not want to stay and people are leaving. So yeah, I'm all for apprenticeships as well.

I'm a big fan of apprenticeships, but we have to make it more attractive. We have to make it a better place to be for these apprentices. And also, don't take the piss out of them, you know.

Because some companies, they use apprentices as free labour, don't they? You know, they might cheat labour and then don't give them something at the end of it, which is wrong.

JONATHAN:
Okay, and so this, here's the world that I'm living in, right? I think that there needs to be harmony somewhere, right? Because I feel for the employers, right?

Where it's like, this is embarrassing too. He was talking to a 25-year-old the other day and he wants to get into construction. Cool.

He said, yeah, but I only want to get into construction to make $200,000 a year. I'm like, holy shit, man, you're 25 years old. You want to make, for you to make $200,000?

What do you expect the guys above you to make, man? Right? And I want this and I want this.

So there needs to be harmony in the sense that you got to do the work and you got to start somewhere, right? Now, yes, we build our apprentices and we build our programs and we have lots of government funded programs that are pushing money towards that agenda. Some of which programs are actually useful, many of which are not, which is a different conversation.

But where it can start earlier, it has to be with the guys and the girls who are actually doing the work today on the sites. You have to love what they do so much and believe in the organizations and the industry that they represent, that it becomes ingrained in them. And how that transpires is when we go home to our children, we're proud.

We have a son, 12 years old. He wants to get into construction, right? And good on him.

But that doesn't occur if I'm not proud of who I am as a tradesperson, the industry I represent. And guess what? I got to work with him.

You know, we take, we go inside, here's a drill, man. Like when you give children more responsibility or responsibility that's above their age, they learn and they get excited. That's what drives people in.

But that doesn't occur if I'm fucking miserable and I hate my job and I hate my career. Because I'll come home and say, no man, you don't want to get into construction, it's going to suck. So it's twofold, right?

When we actually give a shit so much about the people, they actually love what they do. I want somebody to sit there and say, hey man, I want to have a beer with somebody and say, why do you work for the company you work for? Well, because they pay me well.

I don't give a shit. You're a paid well wherever you go. Why?

What drives you there? Because that's the stuff they're going to take home and tell my kids. And guess what?

Now at 9, 10, 11, 12 years old, these guys are already thinking. And not where they get to, you know, they finish high school and well, because why do most people get into trades? Most people get into trades historically because, well, I suck at school and I get into trades.

No, silly. The trade is one of the most reputable careers.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think, I mean, you touched on unions. I'm actually quite envious of the union set up that you've got over there because I don't think our unions are strong enough at all here at all. So you do get looked after in that respect and Australia as well.

I was speaking to a couple of Australian guys the other day and they seem to have construction sorted. They seem to have everything boxed off over there. I mean, they get, for example, they get rostered days off.

So one, they get like a Monday off every fortnight, days rest in certain States in Victoria, for example, it's forced, this is forced by the government. So it's a forced paid day off every two weeks to get your appointments, rest and recuperation, spend time with your family, all that sort of stuff. They're not allowed to work in the rain.

If you work in the rain, you get paid extra. Tail cranes are not allowed to climb more than 30 meters. If they do, you get paid extra.

So they do seem to get looked after. So why isn't that happening? I mean, I don't know what it's like over there, but why isn't it happening here?

Is it, is that money thing? You know, they obviously have to counter this into their pricing these days off and stuff like that. Yeah.

So I just think why aren't our unions like yours?

JONATHAN:
Well, and it's interesting. I don't have all the answers, but I'll share what I do know because in context, I grew up in the non-union sector for most of my life until my twenties and then pivoted to the electrical, the IBEW, electrical union, and tremendously powerful in Toronto anyways, very, very large. I think there's 18,000 members today.

So just in the GTA. So that's, that's very large. And I support the unions.

The unions were put in place at a period of time to look after families and which some of the metrics you just talked about is yes, true here. You show up to work and it's a rain day or you can't work. You show up, you get paid three hours.

Okay. And there's different sliding metrics on, you know, level of complexity. This is good, right?

That's true. I believe in that because there are certain tasks that are higher risk. And with that risk there, I'm going to use the word, there could be a appropriate award attached to that.

And I believe, and this is going to challenge many people that our unions here are too far the other way too, right? Because it allows lack of accountability within some of the members and it allows standards to drop. So then what happens is you have less commitment, you have less integrity, you have less accountability.

And we have that narrative of shit guys on site. They're not shit. They're just not supported properly.

And so some of our, the union's got some great things. And I challenge, I do work with the unions and I challenge them. I'm like, look, we've got to step it up, man.

There's got to be some accountability within our trades. And we've got to train our trade. We've got to train our trades better.

Right? Because that's the other thing that we experienced here is an electrician, for example, in the IBEW could be a certified Sparky yet might lack many skills because they've only done one type of work.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Come on folks.

JIMMY:
Yeah, I agree. That's something I agree with. I was actually speaking to someone the other day about this.

Obviously I'm in the crane industry. It's a high risk job, but the training it needs to change because unless it's ingrained in you, well, when you're doing a job, unless you know your job inside out, it's not really much pointless. There's so much stuff that I've forgotten.

So the training should be so, so that you know it inside out repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, rather than having to, you know, five a year down the line, whatever, check on a book or check this, check that because you don't know the answer. So yeah, training is important. But I was wondering, I mean, you've got all different unions over there in different states.

Obviously some are more attractive than others. Some are stronger than others. Do you find that people move or relocate to be near a better union for better benefits?

JONATHAN:
Perhaps at one point in time, the answer would be absolutely. What we're noticing now is that whether you're in one union or the other, most are all sort of aligned from a wage standpoint and from a benefit standpoint, even the non-union industry has brought its compensation to that level too, which is great, right? Because it allows a little bit of flexibility.

It's like, look, do the work you actually love instead of jumping around, right? Because we all need to survive. We all need a healthy wage to survive.

So we often see that, like, the electrical union goes through a May 1st is always when there's a bump in pay. Well, we follow the plumbers, for example, right? Plumbers go up, electrical goes up, sheet metal goes up.

So I'm saying that there's obviously a difference, but everybody is close enough.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Interesting.

JONATHAN:
Clean operators, actually, like the clean operators union is probably one of our strongest, right? Yeah. Yeah.

JIMMY:
But I found as well, there's, which can be quite confusing. There's different regulations and different methods and different requirements in each area and each state. I think maybe that should be the same across the board.

So for people trying to get into the industry, for example, they have to jump through different hoops. They might have to down the road somewhere, you know? Yes.

Yeah.

JONATHAN:
I think that's, I'm going to use the word limitation. I think that's, if the unions can get better at that, that's one thing. Because it's like, okay, you can, if you want to work on low rise, you need this certification.

But if you want to go on a high rise, you've got to level up. And yes, you know, there's lots of data and other conversations that we can illuminate that for you. But there seems to be a lot of, gray areas, right?

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. I don't like gray areas.

Right. Moving on. Talk to me about the three Cs.

JONATHAN:
Confidence, competence, and oh man, holy shit. Cockiness. Cockiness.

Thank you. Thank you. I looked outside, like the sun just went down.

Like, what the heck just happened? So confidence, competence and cockiness, right? What's the difference?

Right? And this is so interesting because here's how I describe it, right? Like confidence, competence and cockiness.

We all know that cocky guy who comes into a scenario and says, looks around, I can use electricity, looks around this room and goes, yeah, I can wire this room. Never done in his fucking life. Right?

You know, the competent guy who's actually mastered his craft and like knows wholeheartedly what it's going to take to do this and confidence, right? And confidence starts from within. We hear this all the time, right?

But confidence is as a result of doing the hard work of the confidence, like, hey man, I'm certain I can do this because I've lived scenarios that can lead up to this. And so oftentimes we get enamored with the cocky guy. Oh, this guy's a fucking rock star.

He's going to do this, this and this. And I'm like, did you ask him some challenging questions? What happens in this scenario?

I don't know electrical. Okay. Do you know how to connect with human beings?

And so we see, we see this a lot on sites, right? Everybody's going to come off as the, you know, the rooster really cocky. And I go, okay, fuck off right now.

I'm not painting cockiness as a total, like never be cocky because cockiness can drive ego. And I talk about ego all the time, but ego is not always a bad thing. Ego is, is a driving force within us, right?

The cockiness, like think of, think of, I'm going to go back to athletes for a second, right? When you're sort of battling one-on-one with another athlete and you're chirping in his ear, right? Hey, you know, you're chirping, chirping.

That's cockiness, right? What are you actually doing there? Right?

You're, you're amplifying yourself internally and you're trying to sort of like piss him off and step up his, it's part of, it's part of the psychological warfare, but what it actually does is it brings every human being up to a different level. Right? So there's that piece of the, of the cockiness that is actually fun and can actually, when you're within your own team and you're like, you're bantering back and forth.

Hey man, how come I can do, you know, 10 light switches today and you can do seven. What's your problem? Right?

Like, and it's that banter, but there's a difference where it's like, you walk into a room and you decide to, I'm going to fucking do it this way. And you guys can all jump in the light. Whoa.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Who the hell are you man?

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
The peacock, the peacock.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, yeah, you are, you are the confidence does come from competence, but there is a danger of being overconfident.

I've, I've, uh, I've come on stuck with that a couple of times, actually being a bit overconfident, particularly when I was training on the cranes when I've, when I soon found out, Oh, actually, I'm quite good at this. And you try and do things a little bit too quick. I've actually crashed something into the warehouse where I was working, smashed the load, it put a hole in the warehouse because I've been too overconfident.

So I think there's a danger of that.

JONATHAN:
Okay. So we've all done that. Right.

And I'm going to, I'm going to, to rebound that and say that overconfidence leads to competence, right? How do I enter, you know, how do I know how far I can push a vehicle? Well, because I've pushed it too far and I know what's limits, right.

Overconfident, right. You know, yes, we, we make it, but, but for the, for the seasons, for the seasons craftsmen out there, we can all think of you just in our time, I was overconfident in my twenties, right? Oh, I'm going to do all this, you know, no fear, no fear, no fear, no fear, no fear.

And then, you know, decades, many decades later, you're like, I know the tolerance level, but why do I know the tolerance level? Because I've pushed that line.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
You talk about the crane. Okay. So you, you know, something occurred, but now, you know, okay.

When it says, you know, it was an 18,000 pound rating. I know what that actually means.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's interesting. It is interesting. I get the thing as well is, I get these things sometimes when you come on site.

So that over there, they're called rigors, where the people are on the ground, but over here they're called slingers. So sometimes you get a slinger, come on, come on the crane, the new to site. And I say, oh yeah, I've been doing this five years.

It's always five years. And within five minutes, you know, they've been doing it about five weeks. And I'd much rather they just say to me, oh, Jim, you know, I'm actually quite fresh.

I'm quite new. And I'll say no problem at all, man. I'll help you out.

I'll look after you. No worries. Rather than trying to make out there's something not because you get caught out in the end.

JONATHAN:
Yeah.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
But, and see how that's different, right? Hey man, like I'm here's my competence level and here's how I feel. And I might not know this, so I'm going to find out and I'm going to learn.

Right. Or I know the guy who does.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Let's move on.

So you mentioned earlier that you've got a podcast. Yeah. Talk about your podcast.

JONATHAN:
Oh, podcast is people, the people first podcast. And it echoes everything we're talking about today. It's, it's, you know, about leading yourself first and then leading others and bringing people up.

You know, you, you talked about that earlier is we got to bring people up, man. We got to bring people up. My love.

I mean, there's something magical about podcasting. We have great conversations like this. You connect with some really cool people and the stuff that I've learned, you know, over the hundred plus episodes, it's just magical.

Yeah. Magical.

JIMMY:
This is the thing. You learn things, don't you? Always learning.

Yeah. It's, it's mad really, because I'm quite the introvert, you know, I used, I never used, I don't like being in the center of attention. I don't like sort of loud groups and stuff like that.

I don't like being all over social media, but I love this, what we're doing now, talking to people, finding out about their lives and about their careers and, you know, what inspires them. I love this. I'm just so curious about, about people.

It's great. And I, and I, and yeah, I learn things all the time. It's amazing.

So it's kind of selfish in a way, you know, but getting, getting this, all this information and feeding me with things.

JONATHAN:
See, you know, we live in a, we live in a time where information is abundant. I'm going to say the first time in history that we've had this much access to information. So shame on us for not sharing it.

Right. And how do we do that? We just lean into the platforms, right?

You and I are in different parts of the world right now, and we're sharing ideologies. Guess what? There's so many symmetries.

JIMMY:
Yeah. Yeah.

JONATHAN:
So many symmetries.

JIMMY:
Yeah. This is a useful way as well. I mentioned earlier, what can people do if they can't afford live coaching or help?

I mean, go on podcasts, man. There's so many good podcasts out there that really informational look, provide good quality information that you can just, you can just walk along doing your work or whatever, listening to them. It's easy.

JONATHAN:
Yeah. And you know, you ask questions, right? If it can't afford coaching, can't afford something.

First of all, ask questions. Cause I challenge people to think about this. We as human beings, we spend money on the things we choose to spend money on.

It's how important is it at this point in time, right? Like change occurs when the way it currently is sucks less than the way it's going to be.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Right.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
So, okay. You know, I've never smoked, right? But let's use smoking as an example for a second.

You know, smoking cigarettes is 20 plus dollars a pack right now. So, right. People are going to make a change when they're ready to make a change.

JIMMY:
Yeah.

JONATHAN:
Yeah. And they'll move mountains. It's amazing what human beings do.

When we choose to wholeheartedly go all in on something resources, resources, resources, all of a sudden diminish, right? Like we figure out ways that that's the one thing we're so resilient. We figure it out.

JIMMY:
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm a hundred percent agree with that.

I can relate to that a hundred percent. What about your books? You're an author.

So, this is all part of what you've experienced in your career and your journey and that sort of stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

JONATHAN:
I have the pleasure of authoring several different books. One started with the keys to our success, which was about project management and sort of the one key thing that helped me succeed as a project manager. I pivoted to the next book.

It was Kick Your Ego Aside and Put People First. And that's where everything sort of amplified for me with the People First leadership. From there, created a couple of different variations of journals.

Wrote a book with our son, which is a children's picture book. It's called The Adventures of Buttercup and George, A Search for Meaning. And it's about being curious.

And we've got these two characters, Buttercup and George, and one is certain about everything and he knows it all. The other one's a little flower and she's curious about everything. And it takes our characters through a journey and it's designed so that children learn to become curious about everything.

And when you start to question the things around you, it's amazing what shows up. We live in a world where the only thing that means anything is the things we associate meaning to. Everything is empty and meaningless until we attach a meaning to it.

Well, this means this. What if it didn't? Yeah, I've had the pleasure of sharing some information and another one's coming out shortly.

JIMMY:
Which one are you most proud of?

JONATHAN:
I'm going to say the next one coming out. And what I mean by that is every publication is my newest favorite because it's new information. It's like everything else I've learned, kick your ego aside, cool.

That's five years, four years ago now. That's what I knew then. You know how much more I know now?

JIMMY:
Yeah, I was really hoping you were going to say it's the one you wrote with your son. I think that's golden, man. I think that's amazing.

It really is. I'd love to have done that.

JONATHAN:
I'm tremendously proud of that one. He likes to draw and I talk about this, right? I call it the living obituary.

Like at the end of life, and it's not meant to be morbid, it's the end of life. I ask people to go through this picture the day of your funeral, right? It's your eulogy.

Who do you want up there? And for me, it's my son. And what do you want them to say?

And when you start with that, fuck everything changes, right? Because then you embody that. And it just started like a conversation with me and Christian and it's like, how do I better connect with this guy?

How do I better connect with this kid? How do I better share something with him? How do I make him part of something?

He was, I don't know, 10 years old when we did that. You know how proud he was? I didn't give a shit.

It's not about the book. It's on Amazon. Who cares?

If it sells zero copies, I don't care. It's not about that, Christian.

JIMMY:
Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. That is the one there.

That is golden. I love that. I really do.

Yeah, well done. I'm proud of you for that. Out of all of them.

Yeah. Can you, afterwards, can you send me, are these books on your website? Or are they?

JONATHAN:
They're on the website.

JIMMY:
They're all on it. Okay, so you don't need to send me the links for them. Where else can people find you, Jonathan?

JONATHAN:
I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. Jonathan Acinelli is the IG handle.

Easiest way is the website www.peoplefirstleadership.ca. Brilliant.

JIMMY:
Wicked. I've got one more question. Closing question.

What is the one mindset shift you want every construction leader to begin practicing today?

JONATHAN:
If I can leave one thing with them, it's to stay curious. Stay curious about everything. Stay curious about yourself.

Stay curious about the world around you, because everything else will change.

JIMMY:
I love that. Brilliant. Well, it's been great talking to you, mate.

Been a really good conversation. I knew I was going to enjoy it, because we had a good conversation a few weeks ago. It just sort of flowed naturally.

I'd love to get you on again sometime.

JONATHAN:
Yeah, it's an honour and a pleasure. Thank you for making this happen. I appreciate you.

JIMMY:
Yeah, nice one, man. Nice one. So I'll let you go on about your day now.

I'm actually going to go to bed.

JONATHAN:
Yeah. Thanks for making time.

JIMMY:
It's all right. It's all good, brother. It's all good.

Keep doing what you're doing, man. Thank you. I hope the next book's a success.

Good luck. Thank you very much. All right.

Nice one. Take care, mate.

JONATHAN:
Bye.